Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Souless]

Again you bring up epics, so I assume you mean ESoS.
Again I tell you that you KNOW it needs a nerf and therefore shouldn't be considered.
And if you'd have read the thread, you'd know from the multiple times that I've said it, the majority of my melee toons are TWFers.

I have read the thread...and no I'm NOT talking about the ESOS even though it IS overpowered....I'm talking about gs greataxes or falchions...

But that isnt the point either. The point is..and I'll spell it out here since u refuse to answer is: if twf so far outshined 2hf why doenst my toon boosting ftr haste boost4/hasted/+8 str from kensi/rams might for +2 more....easily pull agro over a barb (seemming only hasted and raged) using greensteel? And this is a mob that is STATIONARY......

Listening to u talk, i should be able to roll up on this djinn with a 10 str whip out my gthf and outstrip any other toon cept maybe the esos....

And i'm tellin u this simply isnt the case in enngame raids...any of them...

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Spectyr/Tazzor/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

[Emili]

The implication from Eladrin's post was that this might serve as an alternative to some or all of the changes being discussed in this thread. With that being a possibility, I feel that it behooves the devs to open up some debate on that as well.

Well, from what I understand, if you exclude the Epic SoS and twitching, TWF is ahead of THF, and the game obviously can't be balanced around an apparently unintended game mechanic. Personally, I'd be fine with THF and TWF being balanced a bit better, with the possibility of THF pulling ahead vs. single targets a bit for someone who twitches well, but twitch attack speed cannot be the point of comparison for the two.

You know I respect your opinion greatly... my contention is however is twitching is not that difficult a thing to do - If I may do it, anyone may do it. Is nothing but a little practice sets such in place... i.e. when I play my thf, does not take me long to get back into a twitching mode... going back to twf I have to consciously abstain - and vice-versa. Is no difference when been away from my cleric or casters for a little while ... you play something long enough you get used to it again.

Remember the old key spam weapon changes and the old jump breaks etc... those things where noone cared to follow attack chains? Everyone denied using them to any extent yet everyone knew they existed and yet was funny how common place would be to see people utilizing game flaws while in denial of the use.

So my point be this... if we consider an unintended game mechanic out of the picture... why do so many plan, build and play around them with intent?

[Zenako]

hmm, i see it from time to time

strange if it never passed llama

Where and in which quests? I cannot recall seeing Heroic Surge, as it existed on Lammania in any quest or raid I have run? It had a very distinct visual component to it as well as the immunities to getting affected by spells for a period of time, which would flash with a image much like the Spell Resistence effect when an outsider gets a successful SR roll.

[MalakRevan]

Before I offer my opinion, I would like to actually test the mechanics of the attacks on Lamania on my TWF Pally. From the looks of this, it isn't too big of a nerf, at least to my eyes. That being said, I want to test it.

[Visty]

Where and in which quests? I cannot recall seeing Heroic Surge, as it existed on Lammania in any quest or raid I have run? It had a very distinct visual component to it as well as the immunities to getting affected by spells for a period of time, which would flash with a image much like the Spell Resistence effect when an outsider gets a successful SR roll.

last time i remember seeing it was in von3 when the drows broke free from dance and i broke free from greater command

[Daehawk]

Before I offer my opinion, I would like to actually test the mechanics of the attacks on Lamania on my TWF Pally. From the looks of this, it isn't too big of a nerf, at least to my eyes. That being said, I want to test it.

Indeed, bring on Lam next week for the testing .

[Deamus]

The MAIN reason that this whole combat system is created is to nerf 2wf ! Secondary reason is to fix the lag CHEAP!
Why do i say that ? Let me explain....

I was playing in Europe for 4 years and we never experienced a single dps lag !!!!!!! Yes we had smaller population, approximately at the peak of Europe servers maybe we had 10-20% max of USA population . Now atm they play there maybe 150 people tops .
The reason we didn't experience even a single dps lag is that Europe servers could handle the processing with the population we had.

My point is that the combat system is not broken regarding 2wf they just need more processing power for the calculations... That means new servers that they COST.
So imo Turbine so as not to waste tons of money for server upgrades nerfs 2wf.

That all of it folks its only about money unfortunately......

PS. I dont believe the last proposed system will fix the lag ...more nerfs will come 100%

[Consumer]

my toon boosting ftr haste boost4/hasted/+8 str from kensi/rams might for +2 more

Because the monster build your using no longer is top dps, there are far better alternatives. Just switching the 2 monk for 2 barb adds 3 damage per swing. That 3 damage per swing is applied over 4 times per second including both hands which is over 12 DPS.

Try rolling an actual max DPS TWF toon lol.

[Xionanx]

Why not simply do away with all the speed boosting mechanics period? As far as I can recall, NO ability be it from spell/class/ or race actually "increased attack speed" in tabletop PnP rules.

Haste = 1 extra attack per round (main hand)
TWF = 1 extra off hand attack (feat reduces the penalty for the attack)
ITWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -5 penalty
GTWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -10 penalty
STWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -15 penalty

So hasted +STWF at level 20 = 9 attacks in a 6 second round while NOT moving = 90 attacks per minute.

Now.. how is it we have come to expect 200+ attacks per minute while TWF in DDO? I say leave TWF alone and just get rid of ALL the +attack speed boosting abilities in the game. Lag fixed! Your welcome!

Seriously, just make characters AND monsters attack at the attack speed they are SUPPOSED to have per PnP rules. Yeah, the game will feel "slower" but personally I think moving away from the mad high speed click fest it is now MIGHT actually be a good thing.

(I do realize that in so doing virtually every monster in the game will have to be rebalanced to factor in the drastically reduced DPS, this may be way outside the scope of what you guys want to do)

[sephiroth1084]

I have read the thread...and no I'm NOT talking about the ESOS even though it IS overpowered....I'm talking about gs greataxes or falchions...

But that isnt the point either. The point is..and I'll spell it out here since u refuse to answer is: if twf so far outshined 2hf why doenst my toon boosting ftr haste boost4/hasted/+8 str from kensi/rams might for +2 more....easily pull agro over a barb (seemming only hasted and raged) using greensteel? And this is a mob that is STATIONARY......

Listening to u talk, i should be able to roll up on this djinn with a 10 str whip out my gthf and outstrip any other toon cept maybe the esos....

And i'm tellin u this simply isnt the case in enngame raids...any of them...

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Spectyr/Tazzor/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

Because it's incredibly difficult to actually tell what's going on? Maybe that barb is more geared out than you...maybe he has enough extra damage to negate the difference in attack speed. Maybe he's twitching perfectly and negating the difference in attack speed. Maybe he is wearing some equipment that increases hate generation.Maybe he got lucky and happened to roll a few crits in a row, or got lucky with big-damage procs (Lightning Strik, Disintegration, etc...).

Anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient for making this sort of argument.

[Souless]

Can u explain me pls why then u use that gimped fighting style ? It costs more feats, more farming, u have to spread your ablity points, u have worse "twink" weapos (lol), all THF chars out dps u and u still use it ?
Im really eager to see answer

btw i think that THF do enough damage and nerf solely for twf is no needed, what is needed is general DPS nerf.

The reason I use this fighting syle is: I do out dps toons...Just not all of them all of the time which is what is being suggested...

And leveling up toons i use maelstrom ANS carneflex (even on my scorcs)!!! they r that good.....and quite frankley it has me reevaluating the effectiveness of the twf build....

The Bytcher~

[Zenako]

last time i remember seeing it was in von3 when the drows broke free from dance and i broke free from greater command

They did port in many of the shorter interval saving throws, but that was not heroic surge per se. I know I see the short timers on saving throws all the time. Heroic surge was over and above saving throws however, and would trigger at a specific time interval after casting. It was only easy to see it on spells that had NO saving throws or on spells where you could lower the mobs saves to needing a 20. Many of those were the Enchantment spells.

[Therilith]

why mess with the dps one being better than the other is just opionion and wholey dependant on gear and build and playstyle

Yes, it's the opinion of the devs, the people responsible for keeping the game balanced.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Hello Tolero?
Can you here me?
What were they asking us?

[Souless]

Because the monster build your using no longer is top dps, there are far better alternatives. Just switching the 2 monk for 2 barb adds 3 damage per swing. That 3 damage per swing is applied over 4 times per second including both hands which is over 12 DPS.

Try rolling an actual max DPS TWF toon lol.

I'm not using a monster build......

The Bytcher~

[Halock]

Just curious, but shade has a dps competition going on here, this thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200183

that shows THF in the lead, is that thread and all of the things said in it about THF vs TWF all bull-****?

Again, i'm curious, because that thread was defended time and time again as being as close to a true dps comparison as possible, and it shows THF ahead

[sephiroth1084]

You know I respect your opinion greatly... my contention is however is twitching is not that difficult a thing to do - If I may do it, anyone may do it. Is nothing but a little practice sets such in place... i.e. when I play my thf, does not take me long to get back into a twitching mode... going back to twf I have to consciously abstain - and vice-versa. Is no difference when been away from my cleric or casters for a little while ... you play something long enough you get used to it again.

Remember the old key spam weapon changes and the old jump breaks etc... those things where noone cared to follow attack chains? Everyone denied using them to any extent yet everyone knew they existed and yet was funny how common place would be to see people utilizing game flaws while in denial of the use.

So my point be this... if we consider an unintended game mechanic out of the picture... why do so many plan, build and play around them with intent?

Thanks, Emili, but twitching isn't common knowledge for everyone. It took me almost a year to find out about the practice at all, and you know how much of a forum troll I am.

Compare my experiences with that of folks who don't come to the forums often.

And even ignoring that, should the game have been balanced around the attack chain breaking that was semi-common practice (as per my understanding--I started playing after that had been addressed) for the hardcore? I'm a mediocre twitcher as far as I can tell--there isn't exactly a measuring stick by which I may gauge my skill--and while I don't find it to be especially difficult (and I like the added sense of action in combat), I wouldn't expect everyone who uses THF to have to do the same, particularly not those WoW ex-pats who are used to a generally less active combat system than that of DDO even barring the twitching.

[smatt]

How is it a viable option? As it stands, Fighters will be better than Tempest without even using Fighter haste for TWF. And THF will be on par or maybe even slightly better, with MUCH lower cost. It makes no sense for TWF to not be more powerful than THF.

If this happens, and there is no way to deconstruct weapons, then the Devs are basically smacking us in the head, while they force us to buy their hearts of wood, and then go through the grindfest all over again for GS weapons.

Clueless

[Souless]

Thanks, Emili, but twitching isn't common knowledge for everyone. It took me almost a year to find out about the practice at all, and you know how much of a forum troll I am.

Compare my experiences with that of folks who don't come to the forums often.

And even ignoring that, should the game have been balanced around the attack chain breaking that was semi-common practice (as per my understanding--I started playing after that had been addressed) for the hardcore? I'm a mediocre twitcher as far as I can tell--there isn't exactly a measuring stick by which I may gauge my skill--and while I don't find it to be especially difficult (and I like the added sense of action in combat), I wouldn't expect everyone who uses THF to have to do the same, particularly not those WoW ex-pats who are used to a generally less active combat system than that of DDO even barring the twitching.

It's common enough knowledge......juat like the attack bug aaallllloonnnngg time ago.

[Emili]

The reason I use this fighting syle is: I do out dps toons...Just not all of them all of the time which is what is being suggested...

And leveling up toons i use maelstrom ANS carneflex (even on my scorcs)!!! they r that good.....and quite frankley it has me reevaluating the effectiveness of the twf build....

The Bytcher~

Leveling up THF is more ... is evenly spaced, TWF starts to become reasonable at higher levels and then holds it's own at gtwf and lvl 18 or sometimes cap depending on build. The relivance however I forsee is how one claims higher billing or one outshines the other by dismissing an unintended mechanic in the combat system which many if not most players eventually figure out and use? How is this any different in game play then early GH where people were buying FW and CK scrolls off the vendors - thus out soling away or in group ... the whole of melee standing round piking behind anyone who may cast or umd the **** out of the mob... they curtailed such action by removing the scrolls at the time - oversight - yes. Yet it was none the less the player base gravitates towards what works and how it works intended or not. I digress are you going to tell the player base - hey stop twitching you're exploiting an inintended game mechanic that twf should be on equal terms with you? No, people do not think that way they seek the best they may from a character and squeeze out what they may out of their efforts.