Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Rav'n]

Sorry Doc, I disagree! This thread is VERY MUCH NEEDED!!!!!







I mean c'mon, without this thread we'd have all gone to Kepli's Birthday party expecting Birthday Cake!

[Calebro]

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BUMP


maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

and about stwf, its rumored to be BAB 16, monks dont even get that high..well we do when centered, but that doesnt count for feat purposes, so does that mean we're excluded?

Look above your own post

/facepalm

[ripperj]

Look above your own post

/facepalm

yea, i saw it right after i posted:P
but i didn include a second question in the bump

[Quijonsith]

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maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

There hasn't been any mention of a nerf to unarmed attack speed so as far as I can tell we'll still have the 11% increase from monk unarmed while we will be getting 80% offhand attacks with GTWF.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

Sorry Doc, I disagree! This thread is VERY MUCH NEEDED!!!!!

I mean c'mon, without this thread we'd have all gone to Kepli's Birthday party expecting Birthday Cake!

Well, if you -n- DWF come over, I will haz cake! But none for mister grumpypants.

I just wanted him to feel like he belongs.

*sad panda*

[Calebro]

yea, i saw it right after i posted:P
but i didn include a second question in the bump

and about stwf, its rumored to be BAB 16, monks dont even get that high..well we do when centered, but that doesnt count for feat purposes, so does that mean we're excluded?

Until we get more info about STWF everything here is nothing more than speculation.
Assuming the requirements match those from PnP, you will indeed be excluded without a fairly deep multiclass, but as we have zero information on STWF from the Devs other than "we were considering bringing it in", don't worry about it yet.

[die]

I have a idea, since the only place i laged until just now , was the shroud a 1 too 2 min part in part 4,

why dont we change the raids were we use a littel more strategy rather than 5 min beat down on a single guy maybe split the team up kind of like titan {not the same tho}.. and maybe the boss dies in a diff manner rather than the old beat down .. oh i just laged out solo in ritual on hard solo, what the hell was that , now i know kahza is a mean toon but not than mean.. or is he hmmm any way that my 2 cents

[SaisMatters]

Wow, you really are quite offended by the whole thing, huh?

That sucks. Well, if it makes you feel any better, tomorrow is my birthday! I'm having a BBQ (BYOB, no cake)

Happy Birthday to you!

[Quijonsith]

I have a idea, since the only place i laged until just now , was the shroud a 1 too 2 min part in part 4,

why dont we change the raids were we use a littel more strategy rather than 5 min beat down on a single guy maybe split the team up kind of like titan {not the same tho}.. and maybe the boss dies in a diff manner rather than the old beat down .. oh i just laged out solo in ritual on hard solo, what the hell was that , now i know kahza is a mean toon but not than mean.. or is he hmmm any way that my 2 cents

Yeah maybe kahza really is a mean toon. Isn't that the toon stole the cake that is a lie anyway and we can only now eat it too because we can't have it?

[Natashaelle]

For clarification, the BAB is not confirmed, as stated in this post (thank you).

It is under discussion even to include the feat. The last post i saw from turbine was that they did not need to include it, but if they do I do not see an issue making the requirements high.

And yes, splashing the fighter at lvl 20 would be required on the 16/4 theoretical build. As far as a fair amount of your main class.... well if anyone really thinks that +20% offhand proc rate is so special they absolutely need it to increase average dps over time on their off hand attacks that they need to debate how much more special fighters/rangers are for that bonus they are welcome to get that bonus for that sacrifice.

That gets back to we all need to make build choices.

It might be better to leave it out, it might be nice to add it as an option for some builds. The bottom line is it's not here now and no matter how it gets implemented some players are demonstrating concern their class won't have access to it and other classes will. When things get added that happens and builds do change. Adding STWF doesn't take away something another class doesn't already have. It's the perceived notion their builds won't be as good as other builds.

I think that's an argument to make the requirements high. So that the cost makes it worth taking a lot of time to consider. This prevents cookie-cutting if it can be used by some and not others because there is legitimate value to either decision. That also turns into a juggling act. Too high and no one will do it, too low and everyone will.

I like having more options available to diversify builds and keep the diversification useful. So far it sounds like I'm in the minority with the 'top tier melee feats should be hard to get for non-full BAB classes'. Personally I think other classes do get something (some classes more than others) for that 3/4 BAB already. Lowering the BAB requirement and having a reasonable high Dex requirement might work as well. I can live with that (yeah Aashrym's personal endorsement means sooooo much ).

I'd have a hard time disagreeing with these sentiments

FWIW, both of my own unconventional battle clerics are likely to get some sort of relative *improvement* from this nerf, provided that STWF *is* introduced in the game, even with the high end requirements (though one of them would need a LR)

Also FWIW, I think that any efforts by the Devs to introduce diversity in people's combat options, which is basically what the bastard sword/dorf axe + monk longswords + 2WF changes in U5 are providing, are GOOD.

As far as I can see, STWF is a means whereby some dedicated 2WF types, Fighters and Rangers especially, will be able to mostly retain their current levels of DPS output, whilst reducing those same levels for the 2WF flavour of the day toons, non specialists, and some people using some fashionable and basically exploitative combat splashes in the style of the /Monk 1.

Because let's face it, objectively, this game has been too heavily imbalanced towards supporting some marginal build choices for mêlée fighters, to the direct and clear detriment of some of the basic D&D fighting styles, S&B especially.

So I can't honestly say that I'm against these changes ; quite apart from thinking that for pure balancing purposes, some sort of Shield crafting providing some source of increased and customisable S&B AC/DR improvements for that combat style, would be greatly desirable. That, or some other method to make access to high S&B AC into much less of the grind-intensive task than it is at present...

[die]

Yeah maybe kahza really is a mean toon. Isn't that the toon stole the cake that is a lie anyway and we can only now eat it too because we can't have it?

wowow that just screamed right over my head start again please

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

happy Birthday To You!

Thanks!!!

[Razcar]

Let me understand this... you increased the proc rates on THF beefed up THF styles which have always been played around (twitched) by player style to near-equal the number if attacks of a TWF... then take the TWF chain and intend on nerffing it down? With the expediture it takes to persue the TWF chains being deeper in character build the outcome of this is that the THF now comes ahead again.

That's about it. Eladrin moves in mysterious ways.

[Brother_Solar]

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

Where do "non-stance" monks stand?

Well, they're far closer to Wind stance DPS with the change than they were before (if they're Hasted). This isn't because they are being buffed, but rather because Wind stance is being reduced.

With the latest revision that Eladrin posted last night, Wind IV will supply a 10% "Double Strike" chance, but will not affect the off-hand attacks at all. My assumption is that the lower tiers of Wind stance will provide an incrimental increase up to the 10% for Wind IV (Wind I: 2.5%, Wind II: 5%, Wind III: 7.5%).

For the current Wind IV, monks will make 128 attacks per round with each hand for a total of 256 attack rolls.

With the proposed change, Wind IV monks will make 115*1.1 = 126 main hand attacks and 115*0.8 = 92 off hand attacks for a total of 218 attack rolls.

Non-stance monks will only be making 5% fewer attacks as long as they are hasted. 115 main hand and 115*0.8 = 92 off hand for a total of 207 attacks per minute.

For a table:
Stance			Attacks/Min
Current Wind IV		256
Proposed Wind IV	218
Current Other		230		
Proposed Other		207

I feel this is a good change as it brings non-wind stances closer to Wind IV, making other options more available. However, it is a larger nerf to Wind stance than any of the others. All TWF classes are being nerfed, non-Wind monks are receiving an equivalent nerf, and Wind monks are receiving a slightly larger nerf.

Non-wind monks will be doing 90% of their current DPS. Wind monks will be doing 85% of their current DPS.

[Aashrym]

They already are a lot better. What part of that do you not understand?

Why you are so concerned that classes with more going for them than melee need to be so concerned about the melee ability of a class that pretty much has nothing but melee going for it.

Obviously I do not think that: I do not even think there should be any STWF feat at all. To use "It's a feat" to justify STWF being hard to get is begging the question.

You're arguing against it because it potentially helps other classes and not all. I'm sure when it comes time to add domains all the fighters out there should complain it helps clerics and not fighters.

As has been explained to you many times, that's not the present situation. I am not asking for TWF Clerics to be made better: I want to avoid making them worse.

More specifically, you are asking not to add something that might make another build better so the TWF clerics looks worse in comparison. Will you do the same thing when someone adds something for clerics because another class might look less attractive? Things like this do happen. If domains are ever added clerics might look better that favored souls for example. That doesn't mean we should advocate not adding it because of the new comparison.

Simply untrue. To be a proxy nerf it would have to worsen fighters compared to alternative classes. But fighters make out better than most TWF characters, because spending a feat on STWF is easier for them.

Do you think the higher dex and extra feat are worth to bonus to the off hand proc? I know you are not a fan of adding it, but how many people are really going to take it, and if no one will take it anyway there might not be a point of putting it in. I'm a fan of more choices regardless.

How about instead reading what it says?

I read everything in this thread so far. No easy task with the amount of additions. If is did misread, misinterpret, or take anything out of context I apologize. It happens sometimes, especially in written communication like chat and forums. That whole lack of tone, facial expression, and body language thing.

And yet you won't explain why you think that TWF Clerics, FVS, Bards, Rogues, and Monks need to have their damage nerfed more than Fighters, Rangers, or THF characters are.

I think taking the nerf sucks. Bards are my favorite class to play. I also think bards, clerics, and FVS have other things going for them than DPS, so it's easier for me to rationalize it. I think rogues and monks are hosed more than anyone. As far as me personally, I'll respec and use a THW and move on.

The comments on that feat aren't about the nerf to dps tho. All that feat does according to the last chart is raise the offhand proc from 80% to 100%. It's only one more off hand attack some of the time. That isn't really related to the big nerf in general.

The only comments I made about the change in general boiled down to, "I'm okay with it if it helps with lag." I don't like seeing myself die when I haven't seen myself take damage yet, so the change in general I can accept.

Do you honestly think that the current melee DPS of a TWF Cleric, FVS, Bard, or Rogue is overpowered somehow?

Nope, I do not think melee DPS is overpowered for those classes. I think adding one more option to classes that can take it will hurt those classes either.

I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion or argue with you, just state what I think too. Hopefully if we did get our wires crossed somewhere this will help clear it up.

[robdrew]

What a dissapoiniting idea!I feel like someone who bought a car and after i drove off the lot i realized it wasnt built well enough to go over 60 MPH.Everytime i try to go faster the car starts running really rough.So instead of fixing the car to run as is should you install a device that only allow me to go 60,claiming to me that the car will be fixed by this.When in actuallity its still the same crappy car.I have put ALOT of time into numerous TWF multi-class builds"spending many hours working to make the money for a REALLY nice car"and now all my builds are going to be lemons in comparison to what was advertised.Another sad day for DDO.Which seem to happen more and more as time goes bye

P.S. Im sure im speaking for all ddo players when i say,quit changing the game and just fix your servers.

[Svetelana]

Will Combat Expertise stay active during the casting of clickies as well?

Please say YES!

[Visty]

Will Combat Expertise stay active during the casting of clickies as well?

Please say YES!

yes

[ripperj]

thx again solar

heres a new question in regards to double strike
posted in general discussion but maybe ill get more luck here

if you use a strike, whether it be cleave, quivering palm, assassinate etc
if you get the double strike confirmation, will they happen twice on the main hand hit?

so even if you fail the first quivering palm, you get a...second chance? ...at no addition ki lost?
or a double cleave?
or monks elemental strikes, would they double up?

i think you get the picture

[Aashrym]

That does not make sense. You evidently do not know what BAB does in this game.

Giving Warchanters a Song of BAB would be a minor bonus that other players hardly ever care about, because those characters with meaningful melee weapons probably already have a way to get all the attack bonus they need. A BAB Buff song would be mostly a flavor addition.

BAB and attack bonus are not the same thing. BAB affects number of attack and final bonus on the chain. I thought you were asking for something similar to the BAB bonus from Divine Power. How big a bonus were you thinking?

Edit: I saw your other post regarding the full BAB. That seems excessive to me, but it would be worth exploring the idea.