Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[IronClan]

have you had a lvl 20 toon?and i dotn know wat content you play but almost all barbs i know and alot of uber dps wf fvs i know have epic SOS....funny how you can make blanket statements yet your highest toon is lvl 6.......

This is called anecdotal evidence and... Almost all my friends are hawt females... this must mean the world is almost exclusively populated by hawties right?.

Let's let a Developer answer your question:
"Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?)"

Extreme outlier means it's wielded by a statistically small number of the player base, inside of what everyone acknowledges is a small subset of players who actually play epic. let alone grind them enough to get an ESoS.

So your anecdotal "almost all barbs I know" is obviously a fluke of who you run with and I'm being generous not doubting that "almost every" barb you know isn't A) an exaggeration B) only 2 actual barbs.

In any case I can't imagine how Effed up this game would be if they balanced everything around players who are to the right of a decimal place in the overall percentage of server population.

[Baahb3]

i only read the edited OP and some posts..so if my info is wrong, mind me..

so now u have to get stwf to get 100% off hand attcks??..well pally twf builds are already feat starved and now we got to take another twf feat to bring to full effectiveness??...i think dats unfair and i am lvling up a new pally with twf build jus for the advantages they have and now its nerfed?? ****..

/start sarcasm

Well as a TWFing fighter I think it is unfair that you have self healing, great saves, immunity to disease and fear and can cast spells.

/end sarcasm

It is a choice, TWF paladins will still have the option to take STWF, they just have to make the choice to drop Extend Spell, or OTWF or any other feat. It is about the choice.

[Calebro]

to fix the large disparity between S&B and TWF/THF they need to knock both of them down a little (very little in the case of THF) to make any buffs to S&B not be so drastic...

Wow, that sounds familiar.

The rogue will be closer to the ranger attack speed if this update goes through as it looks now. As now the ranger get 10% increase to all attack speed and 1 extra offhand (basicly 110% main hand and 135% offhand).

Increasing off hand attacks beyond 100% is meaningless. The exatr percentages in the OP are for Dounle Strike, which only occurs in the main hand. If the off hand gets attcks 100% of the time, adding to that does zero good.

It is all very well to give a % boost to Tempest, as it does now, but here we are talking about an insurmountable difference between an STWF Tempest III and a GTWF rogue. The rogue will simply have no chance to compete with th off-hand and double-strike chances built into the new system. That's far inferior to the situation with alacrity now.

I think you're being overly dramatic. While Rogues do get the short end of the stick on this one.... slightly.... their main source of damage is sneak attack. One less SA out of 5 is going to be noticed, but it will hardly be game breaking.

I'd still like to know why they think decreasing lower level character's chances to hit with two weapons will help anything

They're NOT lowering the chances to hit for lower levels. That's what is happening at higher levels. At lower levels, they actually have MORE chances to hit with this system.

It was hard to make it seem worth it to play a rogue for dps as it was with poor dps pre enhancments compared to other melee classes.

Rogues never had low DPS. If you see a Rogue that does, something is terribly wrong.

So, the proposed ki generation with the stated build/gear will be around 85% of what it is currently (due to the lower number of attacks).

My intial assessment of ~90% was an estimate, and by the numbers it would seem that I was close. But as you didn't add Double Strikes in, it will be slightly higher.
So as I stated before, low level monks will regain Ki faster, while high level minks will regain Ki slightly slower. But at high levels Monks have zero problems building Ki anyway, so it's a moot point.

I propose you change THF instead. Nerfing is a bad idea always and that is pretty much what is happening here.

This is most certainly not true. The fact is that in non-PvP oriented games, almost all nerfs are for the betterment of the game. Just because we don't initially like the idea doesn't mean it's bad for the game.

/not signed

The power creep in this game is getting out of hand. Every time they make a mistake and release something that is over the top (i.e. ESoS) everyone says, just increase the other stuff to match, this needs to stop.

Sometimes you need to take a step back to make progress going forward.

^THIS^

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

(*as twitching gets a small nerf too it shouldnt be there actually, but i put it there to show the point)

with the changes thf and twf will be alot better balanced then it is currently. thats also why glancing blows while mocing got removed

its not a nerf, its a overall game balance

Well said Visty.

[tomfar72]

I am a DDO God!! I am uber!! I do more damage than anyone!!!! Wait, you are nerfing me?? You mean my TWF uberness is going to come down to the lvls of scrubby THF?? There is no room for balance in this game I say!! I'm gonna fight this. I'm gonna kick and scream and cry!!! I am gonna nerdrage until the heavens quake and the Gods fear my wrath!! I'm gonna...well...screw it, I'm gonna adapt.

[Tarnoc]

This is called anecdotal evidence and... Almost all my friends are hawt females... this must mean the world is almost exclusively populated by hawties right?.

Let's let a Developer answer your question:
"Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?)"

Extreme outlier means it's wielded by a statistically small number of the player base, inside of what everyone acknowledges is a small subset of players who actually play epic. let alone grind them enough to get an ESoS.

So your anecdotal "almost all barbs I know" is obviously a fluke of who you run with and I'm being generous not doubting that "almost every" barb you know isn't A) an exaggeration B) only 2 actual barbs.

In any case I can't imagine how Effed up this game would be if they balanced everything around players who are to the right of a decimal place in the overall percentage of server population.

yes sorry my bad your 90% of the population is lvl 6 and wouldnt have an epic SOS and its alot more then 2 barbs or said fvs

the epic SOS isnt that hard to grind for btw....i know a few people grinding for their second already.....and if i had a THF i would have one as we speak but alas i wasnt into THF

now put in 12 more items in the kundarak listing s and youde have a similar epic grind that the epic chaos blade has

[sirdanile]

I'm gonna...well...screw it, I'm gonna adapt.

Exactly! though I don't think much adapting needs to be done, just play how you want to play!

[Natashaelle]

4 Fighter levels and 16 Bard/rogue/monk/cleric/favored soul meets the 16 bab requirement and adds the bonus feats to do it.

If the BAB requirement is accurate, which is not btw confirmed, then at level 18 when you would get your final feat, your maximum BAB would be +14, so that the only way to get the feat would be to take Fighter 4 as your last level at level 20, and to *hope* that STWF is included in the bonus Feats you can take.

This is not a very attractive scenario, because with only 4 Fighter levels you'll get no PrE, and meanwhile you will lose a fair amount from your main class.

I'd prefer to see a minimum level requirement rather than this BAB silliness anyway, except in the case that Turbine have a new level cap increase in the works that they're not talking about...

[MrWizard]

or you can go to LOTRO...ask for taank from xoriat....

[Quijonsith]

My intial assessment of ~90% was an estimate, and by the numbers it would seem that I was close. But as you didn't add Double Strikes in, it will be slightly higher.
So as I stated before, low level monks will regain Ki faster, while high level minks will regain Ki slightly slower. But at high levels Monks have zero problems building Ki anyway, so it's a moot point.

Actually he did include double strikes. That's the 110% main hand part of his math.

[tomfar72]

Exactly! though I don't think much adapting needs to be done, just play how you want to play!

No way!! Haven't you read that the sky is fallling?? It's all over the forums and the forums are on the internet so it must be true...DoOoOoOoOoOoOoOom!!!

[redgod]

hay devs got an idea barbarians are causing lots of lag running arround with 10+ guards going off in addition to wepon dps slows us down to much how about you limit guard items to 1 effect per attack think about all the saved calculations

instead of 6 items tripping 3-4 effects for god knows how many different die rolls and auras every time they get hit,,, each item effect has a roll and 1 effect from 1 piece of gear goes off each piece having an equal chance this will bring those gear heavy dps barbs in line with everybody else and not put such a strain on the calculations when you have several well geared barbs in a raid

obviosly anyone with lots of greensteele is causing all this lag

[Calebro]

Actually he did include double strikes. That's the 110% main hand part of his math.

Maybe I missed that part skimming through 6 pages or so. Either way, his point is valid.

[Boromirs]

Reason why Eladrin hasn't replied recently is because it's the memorial day weekend and he doesn't need the extreme stress of a rampaging hoard of very angry gamers flooding the forums. He'll probably be back tuesday to reply and give us the run down on what the devs think.

[sephiroth1084]

This is why they shouldn't invent things that entirely do not exist in the source game. if we're going to have imbalances, let them be inherited imbalances.

In the source game, a rogue can qualify for Tempest as their prestige class almost as easily as a ranger or fighter can. In the source game, there's no business with alacrity (just BAB as an advantage for the number of strikes). In the source game there's no STWF at all.

I think that this is a poor argument. DDO, which functions in a way that is fundamentally different than PnP, must create its own rules in order for it to function at all.

That being said, I do agree that some things that were changed shouldn't have been changed, and that some of the problems we have now stem from those issues.

/start sarcasm

Well as a TWFing fighter I think it is unfair that you have self healing, great saves, immunity to disease and fear and can cast spells.

/end sarcasm

It is a choice, TWF paladins will still have the option to take STWF, they just have to make the choice to drop Extend Spell, or OTWF or any other feat. It is about the choice.

The problem is that we aren't simply talking about adding a feat that expands character power laterally, such as by giving more options, but about something that necessarily raises the power level of a character directly. What's more, this new feat would be necessary for regaining ground lost to an unforeseeable game change, and would be incredibly difficult to qualify for and fit into most character builds.

At some point it has to be acknowledged that some number of feats required to merely perform a particular task is too many. Most classes gain only 7 feats, 3 of which are currently devoted to one of the two DPS feat chains. How many should be prescribed? I honestly don't think we need more necessary combat feats, as that shrinks the reasonable variety of characters in DDO.

[Razcar]

A bit of a meta-question: has any other topic on these boards ever generated a faster growing thread? This does seem to create more posts than even the Wall did.

[Brother_Solar]

My intial assessment of ~90% was an estimate, and by the numbers it would seem that I was close. But as you didn't add Double Strikes in, it will be slightly higher.
So as I stated before, low level monks will regain Ki faster, while high level minks will regain Ki slightly slower. But at high levels Monks have zero problems building Ki anyway, so it's a moot point.

I did add in Double Strikes. That was the 1.1*115 for the main hand attack (i.e., 110% the number of main hand attacks).

I wasn't complaining, btw, just addressing an earlier question for my own satisfaction. I don't think there will be problems with ki generation either.

Edit: Bah, it was already pointed out. Oh well. That's what I get for not keeping up.

[die]

No way!! Haven't you read that the sky is fallling?? It's all over the forums and the forums are on the internet so it must be true...DoOoOoOoOoOoOoOom!!!

you called?.. what i thinkis funny is they say thier doing this too beat lag... lol 1 place were it lags shroud 4 and 5 a total of 2 min, and thier going too change all this , sorry but that does not add up i smell smoke

[Gobbothegreen]

They wont have to be tempest to out dps other classes for free now. You can go AA, pick up the STWF feat (or get it free) and still out alot of other TWF toons dps due to offhand procs. Then you have a many shot that hoses down everything in the room, and powerful enough melee to clean up the scraps.

Yeah, but it still kills the tempest ranger. and tempest is hardly free you have to spend 4 feats to get it (is there any other pre that needs this much?) and now the only benefit you will get is 5% dual strikeWhich is quite ridicolous.
Also no they will be quite far behind twf fighters as they wont have anything to compare with the crit range increase they get and they will have less attacks. Not only them all the monsters, ravagers etc become alot worse.

From how i see it the only twf that will still be worthwhile is pure fighters and pallies(who i still see as solid and probably better than thf becuase of the twitch glancing blow nerf). Now rangers will be doomed to being quite far behind dps wise (oh you can do good dps 20 seconds every 120 min but all the other time you will be outdpsd by all other but monks(sometimes even them).

[Souless]

I have now slept on this nerf and tried to look at it from another perspective.

The problem is: there isn't. THIS IS A NERF plain and simple

I've also been doing some thinking about how sussesful Turbine has been in fixing lag. Thus far I've gotta say your track record isn't good.

The people at Turbine have implemented a number of changes in the form of the lag fix. Since lag seems to be this major concern, so far I've gotta say all of them have failed. DA systemFailed. Slow down combatFailed. Decrease hasteFailed. Improve moster pathing (on may occasions)Failed.

So this change I feel isn't going to solve the lag issue. Which makes all this disscussion about the nerf.

And we are making these game sweeping changes for 3 raid bosses?!?!?!?!?!?! You've gotta be kidding me.

So does this mean when more ppl are playing the game and the servers have to talk to more machines this fix will enevitably fail....I mean assuming I'm still here to see it.

The Bytcher~

[sirdanile]

[QUOTE=tomfar72;2992932Haven't you read that the sky is fallling?? [/QUOTE]


A quote i've been using for the past 30 minutes...

If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.
If you're gonna try, well stick around,
Gonna cry, just move along,
If you're gonna die, you're gonna die.