Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Visty]

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

(*as twitching gets a small nerf too it shouldnt be there actually, but i put it there to show the point)

with the changes thf and twf will be alot better balanced then it is currently. thats also why glancing blows while mocing got removed

[Visty]

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

(*as twitching gets a small nerf too it shouldnt be there actually, but i put it there to show the point)

with the changes thf and twf will be alot better balanced then it is currently. thats also why glancing blows while mocing got removed

its not a nerf, its a overall game balance

[IronClan]

All other things equal it is, in fact, not cool that one style of combat outclasses another to such an embarrassing degree.


The TWF nerf isn't about reducing lag, it's about nerfing TWF. Don't feel bad though, I only know that because I'm part of a secretive and elite group of people who actually read the OP.

Thank you +1 rep... could everyone who believes/is about to post that this is a nerf hidden in a lag fix please re-read the OP and stop cluttering the thread.

[uhgungawa]

As a new player to DDO/very old (Ultima Online) MMO player. This is the first time I have ever seen such a expansive change to a combat system before in the middle of a game's life cycle. This is pretty nuts, and although I don't have much time invested in DDO as of yet am VERY VERY WORRIED that a SUDDEN CHANGE may occur ON ANY BUILD I create in the future.

LOL, get use to it. In the 4 years this game has been live it's happened alot and will continue to do so.

[k1ngp1n]

Possibly, they could institute regulations to help this out though, like double strike percentages are halved for THF, or double strike percentages are capped at a lower percent for THFers.

There are several things that could be put into place to help balance and regulate the double strike mechanic.

I hope they do. It strikes me though that there is no such plan to regulate this and limit it. The actual nerf is not so much to the offhand attack rates - but rather that buffs that used to apply to both hands will now apply only to the mainhand. Every time a new double strike boost comes into play, something will need to be done to counterbalance TWF. I don't see this going well in the future...

Also, my cleric is crying out at the loss of DPS. Not only will those dump-con rogues not have dr bypassers, but they're nerfed in the dps too! Ahhh! If this goes through as is, I won't be puggin' her at all until I see that playerbase has changed.

[Baahb3]

In the source game, there's no business with alacrity (just BAB as an advantage for the number of strikes). In the source game there's no STWF at all.

That is not entirely true.

Haste provides an extra attack at your highest attack, as do certain magical properties such as Speed on your weapon, armor, or bracers.

There are also class features and feats that give you an additional attack at your highest attack bonus, such as Rapid Shot/Strike, Flurry of Blows and Heroic Surge.

There are lots of ways to get extra attacks in PnP, they are all just limited usually to 1 or 2, this is what Turbine is trying to do, limit the amount of 'extra attacks' out there and it turn decreasing combat lag.

[Devonian]

I agree, I come from a pen and paper background and was something of a power gamer then, but the way Two weapon fighting is now, seeing rolls that traditionally would never touch it invoking it like a talisman, is deeply concerning. I mean I love my monk but if this is the start of a game closer to pen and paper late on, I welcome it.

AC should mean something, THF should be the general damage path, TWFing was only really valid where you had damage per attack, but the mess of ACs, attack rate and the Bab/iterative attacks turns all that on its head.

In either case I'm willing to see how it plays out.

[Yagi]

Aaaah they are changing how some mobs jump around? Dammit, I actually enjoyed having to deal with that =/

[DoctorWhofan]

THey just need to stop worrying and learn to love the bomb.

[Devonian]

Aaaah they are changing how some mobs jump around? Dammit, I actually enjoyed having to deal with that =/

Hate to break it to you but on wasd+number keys, I hated it, just not enough fingers to stay in meele range and use ki powers.

[k1ngp1n]

That is not entirely true.

Haste provides an extra attack at your highest attack, as do certain magical properties such as Speed on your weapon, armor, or bracers.

There are also class features and feats that give you an additional attack at your highest attack bonus, such as Rapid Shot/Strike, Flurry of Blows and Heroic Surge.

There are lots of ways to get extra attacks in PnP, they are all just limited usually to 1 or 2, this is what Turbine is trying to do, limit the amount of 'extra attacks' out there and it turn decreasing combat lag.

Negative. Reducing TWF dps and the lag reductions are separate.

[Quijonsith]

So if warchanters are possibly getting a song to boost the groups double strikes where does that leave spell singers and virtuosos?

Given spell singers already get a spell point reduction song maybe we can stick with that theme and have a later song that has a chance to proc a spell point reduction (kind of a reverse double strike for spells). Something like a 5% chance per spell cast to grant 50% spell point reduction for that spell.

As for virtuosos I honestly don't know enough about them to make a suggestion but I do believe they need some love. As it is now I see about a 60/40 split (estimation based on personal observation) between warchanters and spell singers and I've never seen a virtuoso beyond maybe level 5, and before level 5 in my time I might have seen one.

[Baahb3]

Hate to break it to you but on wasd+number keys, I hated it, just not enough fingers to stay in meele range and use ki powers.

Seven Fingered Gloves help with this I hear.

To the OP, well put.

[Iambeastx]

Didn't they implement a game changing mechanic like this in Age of Conan that caused a mass exodus of players?

[moorewr]

That is not entirely true.

Haste provides an extra attack at your highest attack, as do certain magical properties such as Speed on your weapon, armor, or bracers.

There are also class features and feats that give you an additional attack at your highest attack bonus, such as Rapid Shot/Strike, Flurry of Blows and Heroic Surge.

There are lots of ways to get extra attacks in PnP, they are all just limited usually to 1 or 2, this is what Turbine is trying to do, limit the amount of 'extra attacks' out there and it turn decreasing combat lag.

I'm certainly aware of haste and the other examples you mention. I do not see an example in PnP, other than monks and unarmed combat (?) of one class having access to a major change to the combat chain and another not having access. GTWF rogue is equivalent to a GTWF ranger except for their BABs, and both can access the same PrCs given the right feat and skill choices. The only advantages a ranger has when seeking Tempest as their Prestige Class are a) full BAB, and b) TWF-spec rangers have a free feat (TWF).

[Baahb3]

Negative. Reducing TWF dps and the lag reductions are separate.

Ok, fine you can say they are seperate things (and I agree), but you have to agree that reducing DPS will reduce combat lag as well, yes? Might not be the best way to do it, but it is a way.

[rezo]

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

math bad, me no like it!!! hehehe

[Strik3r]

i only read the edited OP and some posts..so if my info is wrong, mind me..

so now u have to get stwf to get 100% off hand attcks??..well pally twf builds are already feat starved and now we got to take another twf feat to bring to full effectiveness??...i think dats unfair and i am lvling up a new pally with twf build jus for the advantages they have and now its nerfed?? ****..

[Baahb3]

I'm certainly aware of haste and the other examples you mention. I do not see an example in PnP, other than monks and unarmed combat (?) of one class having access to a major change to the combat chain and another not having access. GTWF rogue is equivalent to a GTWF ranger except for their BABs, and both can access the same PrCs given the right feat and skill choices. The only advantages a ranger has when seeking Tempest as their Prestige Class are a) full BAB, and b) TWF-spec rangers have a free feat (TWF).

Very true, and I wish they would have made the PrE more like PnP as well. I see no reason that a class should be denied a PrC if they are willing to qualify for it.

I was just pointing out that I see the 'bonus attack' mechanisms of PnP as the 'alacrity' bonus of DDO.

[k1ngp1n]

Ok, fine you can say they are seperate things (and I agree), but you have to agree that reducing DPS will reduce combat lag as well, yes? Might not be the best way to do it, but it is a way.

Depends how its done. In this case whether or not the offhand procs 100% or 80% really isn't going to change DPS lag at all. However, shifting it to a chance to proc vs an attack sequence WILL.