Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Eladrin, in your first posting of numbers you didn't have double strike.

Now that you do I have a question pertaining to monks. (Please forgive me if it's been asked, I don't have the time to read all 1400 posts.)

In the first sentence I quoted it says that monks wind stance will get 5%/10%/15%/20% to off hand proc rate.

Now you have changed it to double strike %. But wind 4 says it would give a 10% chance for double strike proc. Does that mean that each level of wind stance will give a 2.5% chance, or is wind 4 the ONLY level of that stance that will give double strike proc %?

Also, has there been any thought to Ki generation? With monks taking a big hit to the amount of times they will hit with their off hand they will not be generating as much ki, perhaps on double strikes they should get a percentage of extra ki than a normal hit? Ideas on this?

this is a good observation - I don't think monk wind stance gets any bonus to offhand attack % rate with the new table: the 80% that monks get is from taking all the twf feats (base 20% + twf 20% + itwf 20% + gtwf 20% = 80%)

I would guess that it's 2.5% insight bonus to double attack rate per wind stance but Eladrin would have to confirm and update the OP.

A potential option to make up for the fact that monks are unable to take stwf (because of BAB being too low) would be to give each wind stance a 5% bonus to offhand rates as well as a 2.5% bonus to double strike meaning a monk with gtwf in wind4 stance would have a 10% double strike and 100% offhand.

Garth

[Neechen]

While you are at it, why don't you make Sword and Board builds more attractive so that less people opt for two-weapon builds? If you cut down 20% of the two-weapon fighters this way, you'll also gain, no?

[Aashrym]

I agree with most of what you say here however...

What about dex builds?

Its more realistic that a high dex build will have STWF than min maxed str builds who take the min dex requirement just to fit the feat in. My 40 dex rogue wont have access to this due to the BAB 16 requirement but a 19 dex fighter will have access to it. Unrealistic at best. I believe they will have to change to requirements to please people, and if they do, whats to stop all the clerics, bards, and FvS from jumping on that bandwagon too?

I believe what you say about fighters, and Id toss barbarians in there too. If you bring everyone elses melee too close to theirs, it takes away from fighters and barbarians. If I can build a FvS that can melee 90% as well as a barbarian or fighter, I will take that any day of the week.

4 Fighter levels and 16 Bard/rogue/monk/cleric/favored soul meets the 16 bab requirement and adds the bonus feats to do it. TWF might turn into a splash build or fighter/ranger build for the most part. I do see rogues and monks needing the feat more than bards, clerics, or favored souls. But it really is the same basic idea: 16 bab minimum requirement is designed to open up the feat to certain classes. That is how the game works.

I don't like it all the time and other ppl don't like it all the time and those aren't always the same times . If enough people do want the access turbine may or may not just "house rule" the dex requirement and ignore the bab requirement. I don't like that idea but would accept it if that is how things play out. I recommend against it in defense of rangers and fighters but I can accept it, just like other players will need to accept some things too.

I have a sudden urge to discuss cookies (thanks the doctor) but I said I'd be good

[Alintalkin]

While you are at it, why don't you make Sword and Board builds more attractive so that less people opt for two-weapon builds? If you cut down 20% of the two-weapon fighters this way, you'll also gain, no?

Sword and board builds will be more attractive, but not because of this but because of:

Bastard Swords
Bastard Swords when wielded as a Single Weapon or Sword and Shield will now produce Glancing blows on enemies around wielder. The glancing blows are increased by Two Handed Fighting Feat Chain and Enhancements that increase the effectiveness of them.

Dwarven Axes
Dwarven Axes when wielded as a Single Weapon or Axe and Shield will now produce Glancing blows on enemies around wielder. The glancing blows are increased by Two Handed Fighting Feat Chain and Enhancements that increase the effectiveness of them.

DA and BS S&B users will have better dps in update 5.
Edit: As I have a night's sleep since last posting I have decided to see how this goes before I hold a final judgment on this TWF change.

[coolpenguin410]

I believe it was stated multiple times that they were looking for feedback and testing.

[dunklezhan]

I believe it was stated multiple times that they were looking for feedback and testing.

I think you may have missed the rather heavy dose of cynicism in Philam's post.

[coolpenguin410]

I think you may have missed the rather heavy dose of cynicism in Philam's post.

I got it. I just felt it wasn't necessary.

[Gobbothegreen]

What I object to anything that stovepipes builds in ways not intended by PnP.

It is all very well to give a % boost to Tempest, as it does now, but here we are talking about an insurmountable difference between an STWF Tempest III and a GTWF rogue. The rogue will simply have no chance to compete with th off-hand and double-strike chances built into the new system. That's far inferior to the situation with alacrity now.

That's far more unbalanced than the classes are in PnP, and it is bad for the game because it removes choices from us players in building a character.

The rogue will be closer to the ranger attack speed if this update goes through as it looks now. As now the ranger get 10% increase to all attack speed and 1 extra offhand (basicly 110% main hand and 135% offhand).

[Zenako]

While not Tolero, I have done a lot of testing of things on Lammania and I can assure you that the Developers do LISTEN to feedback. There have been numerous features introduced on Lamania which either NEVER made it to the live servers or were substantially changed before going live. Do you see Heroic Surge on Live??? Nope, it was put to rest based on feedback from Lammania.

While the current implementation of DA annoys some players, the original implementation was far far more onerous and would have been a huge disaster for almost ALL play styles, not just a subset.

It appears that Eladrin is working on a system tweak and was looking for some feedback. Getting hundreds of voices to chime in gives them a far better chance of making changes without overlooking aspects that would break some builds or systems. It is also possible that some of those changes could go in, but with a default level of change set to 0%, which would let them nudge things later if they wanted, instead of setting that variable to something like 15%. It allows a subset of devoted and passionate players to voice their feelings, although those same players do need to keep in mind that they are in the final analysis merely a small subset of the overall player base.

[moorewr]

The rogue will be closer to the ranger attack speed if this update goes through as it looks now. As now the ranger get 10% increase to all attack speed and 1 extra offhand (basicly 110% main hand and 135% offhand).

I disagree. Compare the above to the new system: to infinitely more double strikes (5% to 0%), 5% more main-hand strikes, and 25% more off-hand strikes.

Edit: Plus, assuming they make the mistake of introducing STWF, the ranger has the BAB to buy STWF, and the rogue doesn't.

[Baahb3]

A potential option to make up for the fact that monks are unable to take stwf (because of BAB being too low) would be to give each wind stance a 5% bonus to offhand rates as well as a 2.5% bonus to double strike meaning a monk with gtwf in wind4 stance would have a 10% double strike and 100% offhand.

Garth

I think those with STWF and Tempest III should stay at that 100% and a Wind IV monk should be 90%.

In other words in addition to the 2.5% Double Strike at each tier they should also get a 2.5% (instead of 5%) to off hand procs. This will put them just 10% behind the two situations that should be 100% IMO.

[Ganolyn]

I'd still like to know why they think decreasing lower level character's chances to hit with two weapons will help anything. They already take a To Hit loss especially if not taking OTWF and now they will have two chances to miss completely with their off hand, with one pretty much guaranteed unless you focus every feat and enhancement towards it right out of the gate.

[Darksolar]

Make DDO more in line with 3.5 Changes to the game

-Drop stupid Gear like Epic SoS (make more in line with real loot)
-Tone down greensteel crafting to make it more logical up to +10 bonus on a weapon max
-Make feats cost what they should eg. Greater Two Weapon Fighting 19dex
-Drop Glancing blows from 2HF
-two weapon fighting to follow:
---no feat 10% twf 25% itwf 50% gtwf 75% to proc off MH attack (twf wasn't full base attack with off hand was always 1 less then mh)
---so tempest 1 is 10% increase to attack speed with 75% proc will go off more due to speed increase
---tempest 2&3 could be 5% bonus proc and 10% bonus proc for 90% chance
---Zeal/Alacrity is 10% speed increase but now OH just has chance to proc off MH attacks
-Put monsters more inline with actual rules stats to hit bonus's (if gear is logical for us no need to pump monsters to stupid hit/dmg (still pump hp due to twitch vrs round dmg values maybe not so high)
-make AC matter once again but no Wis to AC if uncentered for monk splash
-if 2hf and 2wf are changed this way S&B will be more accepted esp if AC can mean something again
-put in a greensteel monks necklace requires unarmed and monk only that can be enchanted as a greensteel weapon applying the effects to your fist ie transmuting
-make halfling use the small rules where they have to wield small weapons ie light weapons or say a longsword 2 handed then give them an enhancement line to let them wield real 1 handed weapons like longsword one handed but do not let them wield real 2 handed weapons, also drop their unarmed damage 1 step.
-drop healers friend from warforged make there be a real negative to playing the race
- greensteel weapon/armor/item enchanting to be up to +10 bonus(as outlined in store improvements)*maybe someone wants a +5 bashing mithril tower shield with holy and flaming*

Store Improvements (Make More Money Turbine)
-still can get better items in game(so this isn't end game gear but a good start for new people)
-Make your own weapons (not greensteel and only up to +7 bonus)
--Cost 25+1 50+2 100+3 200+4 300+5 500+6 750+7 (50-100 more depending on metal steel = free)
--ie Bust is +2 and of pg is +1 so already a +4 weapon
--ie Holy Burst +3 of Greater Bane +3 and +1 weapon is Max
--ie +1 holy longsword of acid and fire is a +5 weapon(yes holy fire and acid)
--Drop the whole only 1 prefix and suffix from items in game also
-Make your own armor/shields follows same rules as above (shields -10-100 cost and half metal cost)
--Cost 25+1 50+2 75+3 100+4 150+5 250+6 400+7 (100 mith 75adam and +50-100 for selecting look and color

Other:
-add in duergar should be as easy as drow was to implement darker skin tones different enhancements some misc new things like a rangers rams might +2str +2dmg buff enlarge 30sec base +6 per level 1/day


For those that say 19 dex for gtwf is so hard to reach well it was made that way for a reason also you get a good set of build points 32 it a high powered game in 3.5 rules as well when I played 3.5 tomes were not as available as they are here how many builds do you see based only on 1 or 2 tomes almost none.
Being able to buy a +1 all stats at level 3 and a +2 all stats at level 7 it makes feat reqs 2 lower so you only need 17 real dex so you have to sacrifice a few points in strength making your dps a little lower oh no, maybe weapon finesse isn't as much of a joke then?

I am sure this goes well out of the scope of this thread and I am sure it will either get ignored or flamed but who cares.

As for current gear in game I am sure they can make a fix to say Epic SoS that would make it less powerful but still make it one of the best weapons in the game. *maybe give it some hidden negative it is a sword of SHADOW after all...curses?*

[Chai]

4 Fighter levels and 16 Bard/rogue/monk/cleric/favored soul meets the 16 bab requirement and adds the bonus feats to do it. TWF might turn into a splash build or fighter/ranger build for the most part. I do see rogues and monks needing the feat more than bards, clerics, or favored souls. But it really is the same basic idea: 16 bab minimum requirement is designed to open up the feat to certain classes. That is how the game works.

I don't like it all the time and other ppl don't like it all the time and those aren't always the same times . If enough people do want the access turbine may or may not just "house rule" the dex requirement and ignore the bab requirement. I don't like that idea but would accept it if that is how things play out. I recommend against it in defense of rangers and fighters but I can accept it, just like other players will need to accept some things too.

I have a sudden urge to discuss cookies (thanks the doctor) but I said I'd be good

Right, all those classes now have to take 4 levels of a 1/1 BAB class just to gain the feat, and sacrifice alot in doing so.

Rogues are circumstantially supposed to be near the top in DPS, that circumstance of course being when sneak attack is applicable. With this, it will not be the case. Right now my rogue can compete. Instinctively I doubt he will be able to if this goes live and they dont build something into the pure rogue class that bumps the offhand proc chance. This makes sense because rogues are the_dex_kings in most cases, and only sharing that throne with dex rangers.

If they dont put something in for pure rogues, I see alot more multiclassing in the future where rogue levels will be taken minimally to gain their skills as class skills. This is already an issue, but will become alot more extreme. And all this, after they put capstones in to encourage pure class builds.

[Alintalkin]

Seems like this was buried in the amount of posts but what will be the requirements for STWF there was a time, long ago when a dev said that it would be 15 BaB and 19 dex, and throughout the thread people say 16 BAB and 19 dex, was there a post by a dev saying that it was 16 BAB that is more recent then that (relatively old as that was back at the time when the first wanted to put in STWF) post? Or is it just due to the fact that people are reading source books and getting that 16 BAB from there? As I see it if the 15 BAB is true all 3/4 BAB builds have to due is multiclass fighter at lvl 20 for the additional feat, being STWF.

[Gobbothegreen]

I disagree. Compare the above to the new system: to infinitely more double strikes (5% to 0%), 5% more main-hand strikes, and 25% more off-hand strikes.

Edit: Plus, assuming they make the mistake of introducing STWF, the ranger has the BAB to buy STWF, and the rogue doesn't.

How would stwf help rangers when they already got 100% offhand proc?

And it isnt infite its average 5% so total rangers loose ALOT compared to now

[hcarr]

What is great about this game is no one build is a must as nd any well built char will work. This change has the potential to do this. As a twf rouge player this change will devastate his dps through loss of attacks. It was hard to make it seem worth it to play a rogue for dps as it was with poor dps pre enhancments compared to other melee classes.

It just figues anyway i finally got my rogue up and going at cap. So gut fealing about this is *&=%$#$%=&*()(*&=%$4#&=%$#%=&*(*&=%

[cpito]

It's good to find someone else who's not nearly as freaked out by this proposal as some are.

Even ignoring the lag issues, something needed to be done about twf. A big issue I have is that twf is hard to do effectively. If it were easy, humanity's history would be full of them and not archers and knights and foot soldiers with shields.

I may be mistaken but even in PnP, it was difficult to get twf and a prerequisite for it was ambidexterity.

There is no way that someone who dabbles in twf (think splash build) should be able to hit with the off hand weapon as well as someone who spends thier life studying that style of fighting. Not even a rogue, who has to spend a good amount of time training his thieving skills, leaving much less time available to study twf.

[Chai]

Seems like this was buried in the amount of posts but what will be the requirements for STWF there was a time, long ago when a dev said that it would be 15 BaB and 19 dex, and throughout the thread people say 16 BAB and 19 dex, was there a post by a dev saying that it was 16 BAB that is more recent then that (relatively old as that was back at the time when the first wanted to put in STWF) post? Or is it just due to the fact that people are reading source books and getting that 16 BAB from there? As I see it if the 15 BAB is true all 3/4 BAB builds have to due is multiclass fighter at lvl 20 for the additional feat, being STWF.

And lose an entire level of rogue skills. No.

Any rogue who multi into fighter in a planned way usually do so early, like level 2, so they can get all their class skills back up to max ranks.

Since 20 is not a feat level, and rogues BAB doesnt hit 15 until level 20, rogues will not be able to be anywhere near pure and still get this feat. This also goes for the other 3/4 BAB classes - bard, monk, cleric, FvS. yeah monk gets flurry, but this doesnt qualify them for feats. they are still a 3/4 BAB class in that respect.

Didnt they just make an update not too long ago that gave you capstones encouraging you to be pure. Didnt they also announce the rogue will have another capstone and they are adding a +2 dex to the current one? How many cap pure rogues do you think there will be after this?

I see alot of 6 ranger 12 rogue 2 fighter and 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue in the future. This will be your "rogue" character. My rogue can compete with these builds right now for DPS. When the change happens, unless they give rogues a bump here and there for staying pure, I doubt it will still be so.

[Baahb3]

Rogues are circumstantially supposed to be near the top in DPS, that circumstance of course being when sneak attack is applicable. With this, it will not be the case. Right now my rogue can compete. Instinctively I doubt he will be able to if this goes live and they dont build something into the pure rogue class that bumps the offhand proc chance. This makes sense because rogues are the_dex_kings in most cases, and only sharing that throne with dex rangers.

I agree that this change will affect TWFing rogues and battle clerics/bards the most and agree that they should try to find a way to work in something for them, I think it should be in the form of double strike and not off hand proc chance.

I don't really have a problem with these classes having a 20% less chance for off hand procs due to not getting STWF or Tempest III, these two critera should be top tier(i.e. 100%), Wind IV monks as 2nd tier, then all with GTWF 3rd tier, which is the way Eladrin's new chart looks like.

Having said that I would like to see say the assassain PrE give a small percent to each tier (maybe 1.5% or something) or make a capstone that gives 5% double strike chance.