Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Devonian]

You still have not acknowledged the point that matters:
In what way will it improve the game to further reduce the effectiveness of TWF Clerics and Favored Souls?

Do you think the current TWF potential of divine casters is overpowered compared to other kinds of characters?

Well, while I admit I know nothing about DDO late game, I do know pen and paper, perhaps fixing the mess that moved two weapon fighting from being best used only with precision damage like sneak attack, to must have source of damage would help, this would also diversify builds late game adding freedom and variety.

But then I am biased in that Id like a much more by the book experience on several fronts. But By the source material Two Weapon fighting is manifestly too good as stands. (and I say that as a huge monk fan who relies on TWFing feats there in.)

[Aashrym]

I skimmed over this before, but now that I think about it, I recommend against giving Warchanters a Song of Doublestrike.

It could be too powerful, making it hard to balance content against groups both with Warchanter and with other bards, or with Warchanter and with no bard. Of course whether that happens depends on the details of how long Song of Doublestrike lasts and what it stacks with, but it seems it would be quite hard to create a version that feels powerful enough for the Warchanter player to notice the effect without being overpowered.

Doublestrike is a multiplicative bonus to damage (like Haste is), and multiplicative damage bonuses are often deceptively powerful. Warchanters already get more Inspire Courage damage than other bards, and that advantage will probably increase at tier 2 and 3. That'll be enough of them getting songs to boost the damage of melee-specced characters; other bonuses they get can be for defensive/utility buffs or the damage of characters who aren't already near the top of the DPS heap (like maybe Song of BAB).

I doubt the Inspire Courage bonus will increase with higher tiers. But if it did, and with your solution to increase BAB it think we would see more demand for warchanters now than before, unless we can get something in spellsinger and virtuoso to compete with the bonus.

We already see the demand for warchanters over a simple +1/+2 bonus. BAB also only helps classes not capped in the BAB unless the full BAB classes can exceed the current limits. To me all that looks like is a way to increase the the number of attacks for other classes and not for fighters/barbarians/paladins/rangers.

Doublestrike song would give more attacks to all classes, with does seem reasonable. Implementing the stacking might be a concern. Too many bonus could lead to issues if done incorrectly but I'd rather not tear too many holes in a doublestrike song just yet. I like it.

[Roman]

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

Then all forms of attack should be affected by this fact, not just offhand.

[Aashrym]

Ya know another thing could be to add a Rogue Special Bonus Feat that adds to either off hand or Double Strike... or both

perhaps a 10% OH bonus

Aesop

A_D recommended "opportunist" as a double strike rogue special bonus feat. I think that's was an excellent idea and I hope it gets implemented.

[Aashrym]

oh wait I got one...


successfully Bluffing an opponent could add a 5% DS bonus... and Improved Feint could make that +10% for 6 sec


that would be a benefit for Rogues and other Bluff masters (bardsI guess) and actually make Bluff useful for a change

I kinda like this one too. I'm picturing WF melee sorcerer bluff master builds popping up and that just sounds ODD

[Eeomis]

My bleeding eyes may have missed it but....

How will these proposed changes affect Ki regeneration?



Eeo

[grodon9999]

I missed 20 pages of this, has any mention been made for lower mob HP to correspond with this nerf that will in now way actually affect lag?

[Trillea]

I kinda like this one too. I'm picturing WF melee sorcerer bluff master builds popping up and that just sounds ODD

Hmm THF epic-SOS-wielding doublestriking self-healing melee tank sounds good to me..

[Tarnoc]

well my feelings on this BIG TWF NERF...

is that they look at is as a way to generate more cash from the older player base...through TRs LRs and GRs

and at the same time disregarding us because the new people who dont have wat we have from 4 years of grind will then be equalled up in dps.....now any newb can easily make a barb THF and out dps some vets TWF baby whose had 4 years of attention.....

this is wat this nerf is about nothing to do with lag at all....seeing as the lag has to do with GS procs and not so much offhand attacks and or TWF dps

wat i dont get is how 5 dollars to be premium out wieghs a full vip payment but i guess that turbine has a bigger money crunch going on......

[Captain_Wizbang]

Well the thread that has had more posts, faster than Santa can deliver presents has opened a lot of eyes to how much we have going for us with TWF!

So, people, the devs are asking our opinion, and in no way have made any drastic changes, YET....


Even with the current proposal, TWFs' will not have that big of a drop in abilities or APR,
The proposal is to streamline the time line in the current attack mode, to a more automatic modifier! much like the change from 2.0 rules to 3.5!

Yes all TWFs' (including bare handed monks) will see a change, but it wont destroy your character!

One thing most people are missing in the proposal is that they will also work on the back side of this change! (ie ghasts jumping around like a frog so fast we have to lasso them)

Its all directed at reducing the timing of the data stream the melee has to follow!
They wont nerf our toons so bad, it will be the end of the over-powered TWFs we have now!

We have gotten complacent with what we have, and for the most part have ignored the fact that TWFs are slightly over powered!

Think about it, when Tempest was released and then tweaked, it became the single most powerful melee build without having to be a rocket scientists to build one!

I am not totally freaked out by the proposal, and I know that they will also alter the other parts of melee streams to help reduce lag!

And I have run mainly TWFs for 2 years!
I have 7 rangers!

But Im not being paranoid about the proposal!

In PnP, a ranger never has the ability to out melee a kensai! Or very seldom!

Id like to see constructive replies, that dont have some type of hypothetical graph on stats!

[Coldin]

I'll chime in again.

I like the idea of rogue's getting a feat to do double strikes. Opportunist seems like a good fit for that too. +10% double strike seems like a good amount since it's costing a special ability.

As for Bluff and IF, it would be nice if those had more functionality, and opening up a monster to double strikes seems like a good use for it. Bluff could keep it's old functionality, just make it quicker. IF could be changed to a normal attack that simultaneously bluffs, and gives some percentage of a double strike during that attack.

One last thing. Assassins are getting a bit of a raw deal with the single detection on two weapon attacks. This is because as it stands right now, you can sometimes assassinate two monsters at once, so long as they are standing close together. If the system gets changed for only one detection, double assassinations will no longer happen. Please consider leaving two detections for assassinations so we don't lose this neat ability.

[Trillea]

One last thing. Assassins are getting a bit of a raw deal with the single detection on two weapon attacks. This is because as it stands right now, you can sometimes assassinate two monsters at once, so long as they are standing close together. If the system gets changed for only one detection, double assassinations will no longer happen. Please consider leaving two detections for assassinations so we don't lose this neat ability.

I had a post similar to this earlier, and since it is the speed of TWF that is causing the lag, and since attack speed in sneak mode is REALLY slow already mitigating this, I am /signing this 100%.

/signed.

[eonfreon]

I choose to hope his reasons for doing this are genuinely to fix DPS lag.

This is definitely a global nerf for TWF, but it's a kick in the teeth directly to rogues, twf melee FVS, TWF bards, etc.

Why would you choose to believe something that's not true.

Eladrin has specifically stated that the TWF nerf is because he considers TWF to have an "extreme dominance over two handed fighting".

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

The lag fix was the piggybacking of the offhand attack to the main hand attack.

Had they tried to sell the TWF nerf as fair because now there is no collision check for the offhand, they would have been called outright liars. Because anyone who plays the game can see that the offhand collision check is superfluous and unnecessary. How often have the monsters moved away fast enough that you didn't get in the offhand attack?
Especially Raid Bosses who stand there and attack.

I believe they did consider selling it as part of the "fix" but thought better of it. Hence the "I won't hide the fact...." line.
Because until that point in the post there was no mention that the two were really unrelated.

As far as Eladrin's later comment that "sometimes you have an opportunity to attack with the offhand and sometimes you don't" as an attempt to justify the "missing" attack when you are clearly in range but the % dice roll says the second hand doesn't have a chance to attack, all I can say is that is attempt to say that it's fair because now that there is no offhand collision check that we will hit the monsters more often, which I mentioned above.

The attack roll determines if you have a chance or not. It's always been understood by long time D&D players of all types that "hitting" is not always an actual hit. Sometimes it is just that, opening up an opportunity for a true strike.

Just as hit points are not a full picture of the health of the character but also his ability to "survive" combat. That's why "resting" recovers some hit points, because he's getting his wind back, regaining his stamina, etc.

So the to-hit roll is what determines if you have an "opportunity to hit" just as much as an actual hit. And the damage done determines if it's a full hit, a scratch, or just enough to "open" the monster for another attack.

[Aashrym]

it just needs 9 levels of halfing and 3 feats (which fighters have enough)

And when that halfling fighter get his heal will that include more 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells so he can be almost as good as a cleric or fvs?

STWF is 1 feat short of the full chain. My fighter deserves 8th level spells if anyone's FvS deserves access all any full feat chains just because they want to melee more on par with fighters.

[redgod]

well you are nerfing my toons into uselessness and i don't trust your doing it for the masses hate of lag.

and i have all this green steell i wont be using on my elf int based barbarian shuriken thrower (Nerf that if ya can)
what now start over

if you institute a change that effects the mass population negatively you should let us deconstruct green steel and reincarnate free and i don't mean as it is now

i mean let us roll a new toon from scratch keep our xp and items and change everything

your planning on changing everything now theirs no way to fix that. fixing them will require not being them anymore i want a true reincarnate free without needing to grind my way back i want to change everything if you rip out my toons soul you should give me one to replace it

[Jastron]

Wow, this is a long thread. Took me awhile to read. I'm glad though, it shows Turbine we are very concerned about this proposed change.

I have been playing DDO since 2005, in fact I have over 7,000 hours of my life invested in this game, so even though I only have a couple chars who are primarily TWF melees, I'm still a stakeholder of note in this matter, and I'm even more concerned about what it means to others who have countless hours invested in nearly perfect TWF builds. My THF builds are not at all envious of TWF DPS compared to them. This is a PVE game, you do 2x as much damage as I do, that's cool, we all work together, you know?

I was vocal about the DA changes last summer, and I applaud Turbine for listening to us and scaling that back at the time, although I'm still not a fan of the system. I am hopeful they will do the same with this change.

This change will impact far more builds than the Devs may anticipate....for instance, my Rogue, my Favored soul who used to melee as well (no longer, I'm retooling him today to be just ah ealer/spellcaster) and in fact, even my S&B intimitank as even he uses dual axes when he needs to vorpal things or do max DPS such as on Harry.
Even my non-melee Cleric will suffer, as when raids and quests take say 25% longer to complete, questing will become more costly. For that reason I dont think this really increases the power of casters relative to melee, as they may be in a quest for a longer period between shrines.

I am quite concerned about the potential loss of guild members and skilled players overall, that this change could cause. I am hoping this is not the dinner mint or straw, but you never know. Best to play it safe Eladrin, do the physics change first, and only go further if tests can truly PROVE that the lag gets reduced a considerable amount by altering the combat rules further. I'd much rather have this amount of lag, or even more! and not have to lose any more beloved members of our community over this.

Thanks for your consideration!

[Grindor]

In the 70+ pages of comments, I'm sure this has been covered, but I want to be sure...

Even with the edited changes, Ranger Tempest I gets a huge nerf. I'll give you this example based on my own characters build (or eventual build).

12 fighter, 6 ranger, 2 rogue
TWF, ITWF, and GTWF feats
Tempest I

That would give me a 10% haste and 80% off hand attacks. That's the equivalent of 110% main hand attacks and 88% off hand.
Under the new plan, it would be 0% haste and 90% off hand attacks. I'd lose 10% of my main hand damage and only gain 2% on my off hand (which also does less damage than my main).

You state that this is not going to do anything to fix lag... so why the nerf? If Tempest I were to give a 10% chance of a main hand double strike and a 5-10% chance of an off hand attack, THAT would be a lot more fair.

[Redcoil]

This is a TWF CHANGE not a nerf. (Unless you're a rogue. Kinda hosed there.)

Points to make:
THF: Fighters and Pallies get THF increase.

Monks: Big DPS increase potential.
Ranger: No big change for you, really. Just less lag for the rest of us.
Pallies: Slight offhand loss, but gain on mainhand. Again, you're not missing out on much.
Fighter: THF increase, TWF about same.

Downside: Rogues get hosed. Without TWF buffs they flat out lose 20% offhand, as well as vorp/assassinate checks.
Anyone else splashed- bard/fighter combos etc. Lose DPS with no benefits.

Doublestrike Question: as some of the weapons that'll doublestrike have many many effects; holy, burst/blast/force/sneak attack etc, will it be seperate dice rolls for that as well, or since its taken the first hit to double, will all numbers be just copied over.

aka a crit for 250 mainhand, 8 damge from holy, 12 good burst 12 blast 11 sneak attack and +1 force, would the numbers be exactly copied to again reduce computations, or new set? Just curious. Seems simpler is all.

[iwantitall]

These nerfs are a bad idea. Alot of TWF builds rely on their speed to be viable. Its why there is so many builds a person can play with. Taking away from the TWF only will make alot of options for builds less viable and basically make builds more cookie cutter. That is the reason I left World of Warcraft and most likely I will leave DDO if this happens. In my opinion playing a game that if you don't build your toon exactly like (insert build/rotation) no one wants to run with you sucks.
I find it humorous that the term "go back to WOW" is an insult in DDO. It wasn't said to me but i laughed and honestly believe its because of the cookie cutter approach they have to dps. There everyone goes by the same (insert spec/rotation). If you start eliminating the ability to be viable with builds you will be going the same route. I made my first toon a monk and I'm having a blast. Its the speed in which my toon fights. I finally left WOW because it was difficult to stand out among the others because everyone was the same. It looks like TWF/THF are pretty balanced at this time.
I also know it really doesn't matter much because I'm only one person but if everyone is going to have to go to just THF and classes that barely can make it into raids now are going to be even less attractive to raids. Ill have to look for another game. Just my thoughts and I don't mean to jump around so much on ideas but I'm not typing this **** again.

[redgod]

My bleeding eyes may have missed it but....

How will these proposed changes affect Ki regeneration?



Eeo

easy ki generation based on hit will be cut massivly lowering the ammount of elemental strikes
futher gimping all handwrap monks