Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[The_Phenx]

Read Deeper.

I don't like that air stance is being changed to only become useful for TWF.

It really is going to hurt staff using acrobat monks.

The problem is since it grants the increased dex.. its necessary for max AC and they synergy with the new Acrobat I changes to how its applied to S/A Damage, not to mention the loss of alacrity.

Not to mention that you will be negating a 13/6/1 rogue/monk/fighter as a viable build since the additional monk levels will do absolutely nothing worthwhile.

Eladrin I don't suppose you would consider this as a proposed solution.

Currently -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)

Change to -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.) AND Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc a double strike when using a two handed weapon.

Or something along that flavor. That way air stance is viable to all fighting styles.

Will look for a response.

[Xithos]

The changes seem a little too biased towards Two-handed fighting; I'm a number cruncher and I always felt it was fine that TWF was better DPS due to having to invest more time in the collection of the gear for it (2x as many weapons) and needing a higher + to hit (TWF penalty requiring additional gear). The epic Sword of Shadows makes this situation much worse because there is no one-handed equivalent and if we ever see something very powerful down the line it will take even more time and energy to whip up 2x epic weapons as opposed to just one.

[Baahb3]

Yes there DPS difference is there, but it would be better to bring others up (sword and board especially) than to bring TWF guys down.

I have to strongly disagree here. The power creep in DDO is getting out of hand. Everytime something new comes out that people say is too powerful (ESoS for example), instead of taking that item or feature back down to a balanced level, people scream that other things need to be boosted.

IMO this way of thinking is adding a mistake to another mistake, not a good formula.

In this proposed system it looks like TWF would still be top dog but instead of only ESoS THFer competing with TWFers, all THFers will be able to compete.

Will have to wait to see the numbers but I currently don't have much of a problem with this.

[TFPAQ]

If I'm reading right, monks do not get double strike so no; but plz someone correct me if im wrong, i want to be

... that zeal, trip, monk elemental strikes, etc would have a chance to double-proc based on the "second chance", so there is no reason that ToD shouldn't have a chance to double up.

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...

[Ukenburger]

The changes seem a little too biased towards Two-handed fighting; I'm a number cruncher and I always felt it was fine that TWF was better DPS due to having to invest more time in the collection of the gear for it (2x as many weapons) and needing a higher + to hit (TWF penalty requiring additional gear). The epic Sword of Shadows makes this situation much worse because there is no one-handed equivalent and if we ever see something very powerful down the line it will take even more time and energy to whip up 2x epic weapons as opposed to just one.

So we need the Epic Sword of Shadows capable of transmuting into a pair of Epic Khopesh of Shadows to help balance the power?

[ebit157]

Put me in the "rather have lag" column. This looks like it puts barbs (especially with the hidden bonuses currently being reaped) and other THF classes even further upon the pedestal. DnD is about flexibility in how you play the game. This moves the game further away from the core idea in more ways than one.

[Roda]

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

THF twitch nerf?

[Cyr]

Interesting possibility.

We may instead go with a small double strike chance at each Kensei tier, which I think is more appropriate to the flavor of the PrE.

Double strike again favors THF. It is clear that everything in this change favors THF.

Here's a beter idea for kensei,

*As part of the individual weapon enhancments that you can purchase each tier you add the following benefit.

** If it's a Two handed weapon a double strike chance.
**If it's a one handed weapon a smaller double strike chance and a small offhand hook increase.

This balances between one and two handed weapons, S&B, and TWF.

[Hutoth]

no nerfing please.

lag fix = yes

nerf = no

[xTethx]

... that zeal, trip, monk elemental strikes, etc would have a chance to double-proc based on the "second chance", so there is no reason that ToD shouldn't have a chance to double up.

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...

Ahhh guess i wasnt considering tod an elemental strike.

[Vengeance777]

There goes the dual heavy pick Amazon build I was working on . I just made some greensteel for them to.

Please up twf damage dice so we can still be viable if you make this change.

[Gurbatonden_Puggh]

This is just a nerf to twf wrapped up in a "look we will fix lag" package....If this were not a nerf they would just change the calculations to reduce the lag and increase the procs to equal the old levels thus not killing twf on splashs.....

Please dont try to sweep that under the rug and just tout how this to be the end of dps lag. It may help lag BUT.....It IS a nerf! It reminds my how legislators take a nice sound bill and load in a bunch of **** no one hears about....It is a nerf..

[The_Phenx]

Interesting possibility.

We may instead go with a small double strike chance at each Kensei tier, which I think is more appropriate to the flavor of the PrE..

I could agree with that... multiple flicks of the blade at openings sounds appropriate.

Currently the Thief-Acrobat has been left unchanged. We considered changing their staff haste to a double strike with staves ability, but decided to leave it alone for now.

THANK YOU! The speed of the acrobat is what really makes them a unique and fun build to play. Please make leaving them alone for now.. a permanent thing lol.

[LordPiglet]

Why do rangers get such a higher offhand attack and fighters and paladins do not? That is not the way DDO works currently. It would probably be a good idea to post the current numbers next to the proposed numbers so people got a better visualization of the changes.

Currently, a Temptest 3 ranger gets one extra attack that's not available to any other TWF. That's probably why they higher base on the off hand.

[Gringo]

I can remember being a ranger and being unable to find groups because you weren't seen as a dps source. Slowly the mind set changed and rangers were accepted into groups. Then the WOP nerf hit (which I support, it should have happened) and twf took a big hit. Now you want to decrease the amount of damage rangers do and send them back into exile?

Monks are just starting to gain acceptance in high level content, being seen as a source of DPS (be it less than almost every other class) and as an asset to groups and your going to knock them down now too?

With the system the way it is you see a wide variety of builds. After this TWF nerf (lets call it what it is) all we are going to see are half-orc THF barbs with epic SOS running around.


Reduce lag by reducing the number of dice rolls?

I Love It. With some of the suggestions in the posts, you can drastically reduce the number of dice rolls tied to every attack and reduce the overall lag.

Changing attack speed to double strike?

I don't like it, but will accept it. I like my ranger and monk being able to swing/punch faster than my barb but I can justify the change mentally from a flavor perspective.

Changing off hand attacks for ALL TWF builds?

Hate it, your going to kill classes and drive away subscribers.

I think you will see that most of the DDO populous will accept changes #1 and #2. But change #3 and you will have a very unhappy demographic of your player base. I for one don't want to see another mass exodus of players because you are taking all the hard work they put into their toons, and all the enjoyment they get out of playing them, away. TWF isn't game breaking, so please don't break IT .

[Seosamh]

On page one Coldin asked:

And just to make sure about something else. These off-hand chances. When they do proc, do they automatically hit then?

and you said:

All attack hooks have their own unique to-hit and damage rolls.

The off hand attack roll alone covers:

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

So, you are double penalizing off hand - essentially treating a character as if they didn't have a second arm even if they rolled high enough to hit with the off hand.

Or am I not understanding correctly?

Edited for clarity.

[Aerendil]

Eladrin,

1 - will all characters be granted free greater rez. abilities with this if it goes live?
This is a massive change that may not only affect one's gear, but also their chosen class and play experiences.
Being able to re-build one's character is only fair compensation here. Additionally, greensteel deconstruction (as mentioned earlier) would also help.

2 - the values suggested for off-hand attacks seem somewhat low.
While I don't agree with having 100% offhand attacks merely with TWF, I also don't agree that having GTWF + Tempest III (the equivalent of superior or perfect TWF) should only offer an 85%'ish chance to swing your offhand weapon. This also hurts those classes that cannot (or don't want to) obtain Tempest or Monk splashes, such as Bard, who have just had their off-hand attacks cut in half.

3 - While you want to avoid nerfing GS unnecessarily, is it possible that the multiple effects (i.e. acid blast + good blast) on GS weaponry and Monk ToD rings are also attributing to some lag as each strike has to add X number of extra effects (which are growing and growing as time goes on)?

[Anthios888]

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.

[Jay203]

hehe
looking at the number of disgruntled ppl so far
this would be an interesting change for sure
now while you're at it, scrap greensteel altogether so we can stop hyperinflating monster stats

[bobbryan2]

What about... on attacks that don't trigger an offhand hook, the main hand would get a bonus in damage... say +10 damage or so.

That would go a long way to keeping a positive bonus for having an offhand weapon without requiring the lag from hitting with an offhand bonus.

In short... you can get away from, "the only benefit to fighting with 2 weapons is that your other weapon can hit too."