Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Seikojin]

What about replacing mob clusters so there aren't as many per engagement as there currently is? I am sure that there would be less data load if you only were swinging against 2 or 3 monsters at once rather than 10 to 15.

[Winteris]

There is one more solution, pump up mobs AC a bit, less hit means less pocs, less calculations. Additonally it will make some sense, whats a point to roll for hit if everyone hit on 1? It will be also more twf nerf than thf, but changing whole combat mechanics in proposed way mean many unpredicted and unwanted effects. That system will be also simpler and easier to understand for new players. It will make a destruction, maladroit weapons and sunder ability viable choice. Will be also easier to balance, just give some classes to-hit bonuses, it will be in flavor for some Pre, like assasins, thief acrobat (full BAB with staves ?), kotc paladins (+ to hit against outsiders) etc

Also it is really funny that through 60 pages of that thread i saw maybe few questions about THF nerf, but i saw many ppl whining how bad TWF is, how they cant pull aggro from THf barbs etc. Its hilarious , u really dont have to suffer any more, just drop that cursed style and start to roll THF chars.

[Tapsimanxer]

i dont know if this got mentioned, im just a simple hack and slash player. what will happen to my exalted smites and divine sacrifices on the offhand? will they still proc twice for twf?

im afraid my playstyle is nearing the end. and i havent been playing a year even.

[SisAmethyst]

So...someone posted what sounds like a good idea to reduce calculations...'1 roll to rule them all', rather than 10 different rolls..and its too late to make that kind of change?
...
As other people have already said...if the servers cannot handle the calculations now, but apparently reducing twf attacks by the 25% number people are saying will...I mean seriously - chips can handle millions of calculations a second and 25% less is going to make a difference?

They will as well reduce calculation (physics check) by 50%, this part is the reduce of the lag. However they thing also that TWF is too much overpowered over THF and will nerf that (statement around page 30 I guess). So the nerf of the TWF has not really much to do with the lag reduction.

It is pretty hard NOT to ask about the quality of the servers at that point isnt it?

They even posted in this Thread more then once that they already upgraded the Hardware, but just upgrading Hardware will not solve the Problems as it is as well absolutly un-economic to just improve the Server performance in the Sky to have it finally 95% being in idle mode while when the lag happens in burst moments the Load still exceed 100%. I know it is hard to read the previous 60 pages but please stop asking for Hardware, the Devs start to get annoyed about this sentences and at least me I am glad they listen to us.

And side note - many people playing, and posting, are programmers and engineers in their own right...why not open up the discussion BEFORE it is too late to make changes? I mean...really.

If you would have read the first post more carefully then you would notice that THIS actualy happen. They ask us right now what we think about the ide, about comments, feelings, suggestions AND they already modified their initial proposal due to feeedbag!

[Forzah]

Before deciding whether this change is any good, I'd like to hear some more numbers. How much damage (in percentage) does TWF approximately do more than THF for two equally well geared characters?

[Skull_49]

i dont know if this got mentioned, im just a simple hack and slash player. what will happen to my exalted smites and divine sacrifices on the offhand? will they still proc twice for twf?

im afraid my playstyle is nearing the end. and i havent been playing a year even.

this is a prime example ... especially the people who have been playing a year+ and eithor dislike thf or just have twf toons and prefer it. Let alone no more monks maybe a few full str twf builds probably not tho. Although the lag should go down because 1/4 of the players quiting the game will make the server do less calculations on top of the twf nerf so lag should go down.

[krud]

Just to agree with others on the ability for requirements for STWF
19 dex is nuts for my main - IF you do that, i'll need base 20 cha AND base 19 dex, not mention needing str just to hit AND a decent con score to survive.

Outside of this i'm still very unsure of these changes, they seem to be more inline with reducing dps than streamlining data flow.

Actually, I'd rather them make the dex prereq so high that only finesse builds can get it. Keeps them from being gimp, and gives some added benefit for taking the extra feat. Str builds will just have to do without. It's the trade-off for having higher str damage. rangers would also have to meet the dex prereq.

[alcmaeon]

Change is evil. So if you are going to do this radical of a concept change. You need to put in a reasonable ability to remake my greensteel. I've put a lot of time and effort in the Shroud. IF you don't you are just going to p me of, and make me start thinking about a long, long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

[Iambeastx]

Actually, I'd rather them make the dex prereq so high that only finesse builds can get it. Keeps them from being gimp, and gives some added benefit for taking the extra feat. Str builds will just have to do without. It's the trade-off for having higher str damage.

Your suggesting that an already feat starved class, paladins, should be forced to take two extra feats in order to try to keep up with dps? and most likely still not keep up with Thf dps.

[Tapsimanxer]

hmm, i think the devs are bastard sword users.

[krud]

Your suggesting that an already feat starved class, paladins, should be forced to take two extra feats in order to try to keep up with dps? and most likely still not keep up with Thf dps.

Not at all, they just won't take it, just like every other str build. Only high dex builds would hit the prereqs. You go with str and do without the feat. It's not like finesse builds aren't gonna become kings of dps if they're the only ones with stwf.

edit - keep up with THF? lol. they're already ahead.

[redgod]

kills monk dps arent we hated enough makes us fight with 1 hand tied sad fix lag erase toon then theirs no lag issue

swatting flies with a baseball bat is not a good idea

and what about monks who dont stand arround in wind stance you gave earth stance life when you gave gear that raised the dammage die now you cut the attacks in half and really dungen alert fixed low level lag. ya right ... what low level lag it was never an issue raid lag was dungen alert dident do anything for raid lag.

this will no more reason to raid my toons are trash

like 2wf rogues relie on off hands for dps for stat dammage and such is raising the dammage of their mainhand is not going to do anything no this will put stat dammagers obsolete monks useless and 2hf barbs and fighters everywere if this goes live ill quit before i re build greensteele and tr 12 of my 16 toons

this is going to be tarded please dont make this live before i can play starcraft 2 i want something to do when i quit

[SisAmethyst]

you have x number of players all hitting a mob, y number of mobs all hitting players and x * y number of attacks which need geometry checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, ciritcal rolls etc etc
...
reducing the number of geometry checks is a start (and a good one) ...

Well as already mentioned before (yes 60 pages is awesome to crawl through), the big problem are the geometry checks not the rolls! And they will reduce that physics checks by 50% which will reduce the ammount of calculations far more then 50%!

...the damage roll will be:
1d6 Slashing from weapon, 2d6 good from holy, 1d6 good from cap stone, 2d6 light from cap stone, 4d6 from KotC, 1d6 from Kotc set, 9d6 light from divine sacrifice
...
instead of the above I would use:
1d6 slashing from weapon, 1 D15 + 3 Good, 1D55 + 11 Light, 1D25 + 5 from Kotc

the BIG problem here is

1d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 + 2d6 + 4d6 + 1d6 + 9d6 != 1d6 + 1D15 + 3 + 1D55 + 11 +1D25 + 5

Its a totaly differenet equation with statistically totaly different numbers and end results! (Not to mention that it wouldn't be D20 system anymore) see this about the Normal distribution. For example this is the statistical image of a single 1d9:


Your equation would change the outcome of this fundamental!

To make it more visible: 2(1+7) != 7(1+2) --> 16 != 21

It will just not work to replace several smaller dices with one big!

[Tarnoc]

Not at all, they just won't take it, just like every other str build. Only high dex builds would hit the prereqs. You go with str and do without the feat. It's not like finesse builds aren't gonna become kings of dps if they're the only ones with stwf.

edit - keep up with THF? lol. they're already ahead.

i dont see this i guess that thelanis must just have uber THF s because like ive stated before the only way anyone steals agro is because the THF is chained slowed or rolling 1s and 2s assuming that the THF isnt build yesterday vs TWF build 4 years ago

so imo THF who is almost complete with thier gear vs a TWF almost complete with gear the THF will out dps the TWF short of the luck of die rolls and honestly they shouldnt be basing the dps out on good or bad rolls

P.S. ive seen a sword and board pali steal agro from aTHF who couldnt roll outta a paper bag....oooo lets nerf pali smites while were at it


IDE RATHER SEE THEM NERF GS WEAPON PROCS BEFORE THEY NERF THE SPEED AT WHICH WE KILL THINGS

[uhgungawa]

That's right, you heard it here first. The finalized TWF is here now for your viewing, enjoy.

[Daehawk]

Kambuk, you have brought up something that we have addressed for the next update. There was a bug where AOE spells were requiring all clients affected by the spell to be synchronized. Essentially, before an AOE (many, but not all) would go off all the clients had to report in to the server with a "I'm here!" message. This would cause exactly the problem you describe. We've fixed this, and now every player will get the effect applied immediately after the spell is cast.

Unfortunately, we still have other dps lag issues.

I was not in the office today, so I apologize if this was already addressed by Eladrin, I have not had the time to read 90% of this thread.

I never saw the question asked before or an answer received so you're fine Phax.

But I have a question if you want to answer it. Some spells that we cast like fireball or another spell that does an aoe explosion. If we have one target and it dies while we cast it the spell just disappears. Has this been fixed with this change above where the spell will still shoot over to the pre-destined spot?

[akiraproject24]

so i am curious as to who on here will admit that thier fully geared uber THF barb gets out DPSed by TWF.....

the only time i ever steal agro from a barb tanking is

1 they get chained or slowed..
2 they are new and actually dont have all the gear that my elder TWF has
3 thier INT based lol
4 i get lucky and way out crit the barb who cant roll above a 1...and that shouldnt be considered out dpsing as that just bad rolling vs my good rolling

So tell me shade do the TWF in your group steal your agro in normal conditions?

im guesssing not and all the TWF cryign for balance just see an opurtunity to be on top without any really uber gear......

and btw this was this way before epic SOS so i only see that weapon as taking it even further to THf favour......guess ill have to get an epic SOS on my ranger hmm coupled with favoured enemys it might be uber dps

P.S.the dps lag is mostly a factor of GS procs this is widely known.....so why not loose the procs nerf GS which you will do anyways...make it ona crit and lower damages from 500+lightning strike to say 20 points.....this would stop the whole calculate 1% to 5% thing everyswing......this is the true solution and as much as you think nerfing our attacks is the lesser of two evils it is not.....i own 7 GS weapons on my TWF alone and im in favour of toning them down over nerfing my speed period to only have it not address the issue of LAG

My twf wf kensai with khopeshs does it all the time

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Eladrin, couldn't you just remove the off-hand physics checks and call it a day, as well? If these make up the larger portion of the load......

Frankly if they were smart they would have fixed the physics checks...and not attempted to merge it with a nerf.

If they had to nerf for balance, they could have done that later, and the mechanic would already be in place. As it is people are just confused and coming up with suggestions that don't help at all becuase they don't understand there are two seperate things happenning.

[Trillea]

I don't know if this has been covered yet, but currently the assassinate ability with 2 weapons is always a 2-weapon strike causing either 2 saves on 1 mob, or 1 save on 2 different mobs. Would this change significantly? If so this is a major hit to rogues, at least until assassinate is no longer viable like in epic.

[Argo112]

I'm pretty intimately familiar with "tolerance" levels of the community after all this time (even with all the new folks in the mix since F2P launch), and it is definitely not a case of "apathy".

As for seeing non-dps lag, on your end, there is no way for you to know when you experience lag in your quest what the person in another quest is doing that could be causing it. It's the nature of the way instances relate to one another in game. Your waterworks quest could be sharing with an instance of the marketplace, a full shroud run, a partial shroud run, korthos island, someone with a hireling that had a pathing issue in Von2 (which was fixed fortunately in the last update), etc. This is what our performance studies are for. We sit down and study the poor performance, then start parsing the data to see what is being so expensive. Sometimes it's very clear, and sometimes it requires more digging on the part of the teams. To a point, there will always be some moments of lag because there are so many different things that relate to it. It really is like illness - you can't prevent every cold and flu, but you can reduce the likelihood of catching it for better living

If DPS lag in high level content is being caused by a servers having a problem keeping up with the activity on the server ... why not have servers dedicated to high-end content alone? VIP subscription money can pay for it, and I don't *think* it would be that hard to implement....