Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[RangerRat]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

All this planning seems great if you were the Government trying to fix the problem. Lets try to nickle dime the public and still make enough money. How much resources are you putting towards the servers? Will it cost to much to fix or add more to it? So we give out players some great stuff, we make them happy and have them spend hours of time creating characters around it, then take it away. We used to call people a name in the 1800 that dealt with the Native Americans the same way. With the over 1 Million subscribers money, upgrade the servers instead of nerfing the players.

[gizmos19]

I don't like this change. I didn't like grazing hit system too... but this percentage of proc offhand attacks sounds to me ridicolous really: what's next?

from a hustlers point of veiw .. i would nurf what 90 of the populus made/make so that way it would force them to reroll or GR TR . thus bringing in a ton of loot . the name of the game is keep pepol rolling new toons .. a remake of old or what ever f-what you spent the last 4 years building . the toon that you said was complet dosent genarte mony .
heres the real fix to lag .. turbine GET N UP GRADE FROM DIAL-UP .. get um cox high speed on demand . they can run 1billon x boxs at the same time .. you cant run 1 mil ppl .

hears what i want from a game . i want to plan my toon and know that when i complet the toon it wont be gimp cuz of a nurf that was needed to line a pockett



thank you roc

[akiraproject24]

from a hustlers point of veiw .. i would nurf what 90 of the populus made/make so that way it would force them to reroll or GR TR . thus bringing in a ton of loot . the name of the game is keep pepol rolling new toons .. a remake of old or what ever f-what you spent the last 4 years building . the toon that you said was complet dosent genarte mony .
heres the real fix to lag .. turbine GET N UP GRADE FROM DIAL-UP .. get um cox high speed on demand . they can run 1billon x boxs at the same time .. you cant run 1 mil ppl .

hears what i want from a game . i want to plan my toon and know that when i complet the toon it wont be gimp cuz of a nurf that was needed to line a pockett



thank you roc

That brings up an excellent point, are we fixing lag, or fixing lag in a way that will line turbines pocket...I believe the answer is apparent.

[Angelus_dead]

It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

I skimmed over this before, but now that I think about it, I recommend against giving Warchanters a Song of Doublestrike.

It could be too powerful, making it hard to balance content against groups both with Warchanter and with other bards, or with Warchanter and with no bard. Of course whether that happens depends on the details of how long Song of Doublestrike lasts and what it stacks with, but it seems it would be quite hard to create a version that feels powerful enough for the Warchanter player to notice the effect without being overpowered.

Doublestrike is a multiplicative bonus to damage (like Haste is), and multiplicative damage bonuses are often deceptively powerful. Warchanters already get more Inspire Courage damage than other bards, and that advantage will probably increase at tier 2 and 3. That'll be enough of them getting songs to boost the damage of melee-specced characters; other bonuses they get can be for defensive/utility buffs or the damage of characters who aren't already near the top of the DPS heap (like maybe Song of BAB).

[Theragorn]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

No

[Angelus_dead]

Bring back STWF. A class that can heal itself and cast blade barrier shouldn't be as good at melee as a real melee class.

Clerics and Favored Souls are already have melee damage far behind the primary melee classes. Is there any justification to give them a further reduction compared to Fighters, Barbarians, and Rangers?

[caution]

Kambuk, you have brought up something that we have addressed for the next update. There was a bug where AOE spells were requiring all clients affected by the spell to be synchronized. Essentially, before an AOE (many, but not all) would go off all the clients had to report in to the server with a "I'm here!" message. This would cause exactly the problem you describe. We've fixed this, and now every player will get the effect applied immediately after the spell is cast.

Is this true? I live for the pre-DDO:EU days where my combat log does not say "Casting FoD.. Casting FoD... Casting FoD" till one finally goes off.

I related this to the synchronisation changes so I am all for this one!

[Sarnind]

this system has no sense! It s a abberration of D&D rules!

[Sarr]

I think Turbine wants to add much more new mechanic to our present DDO game, so they are thinking in advance of lowering the impact of those new systems. We already know about guild system (many people in the same place again, many new pages of code, statistics, etc.), then we might see the return of the revised bounty system, new races, classes, UI changes (which may be an occasion to add more *fun* functionality), etc, etc.
So overall, knowing that Turbine got a massive investment in them and the success of DDO:U, I'm sure they already estimated how new hardware would help, and probably it wasn't worth it at all. So I wouldn't say, like many others here, that "I know better how to do it differently". Because we just don't have the required knowledge nor qualifications for estimating such things (or at least 99% of us don't have it).

Other than that, I'm worried about going further and again further from the D&D ruleset. Please Turbine, be aware that it could turn in to something bad for the popularity of DDO at some point - we already see people complaining about it on some MMO sites in comments. That's nothing good in my opinion.

Though I love TWF nerf and I really hope that THF will be as good of a choice as TWF at some point. Because it should be that way in my opinion. That would mean we really have _choice_, instead of a posibility to be weaker than TWF'ers.

So, I really like TWF nerf, but I have mixed feelings about going further away from the D&D Ruleset. And yes, this system is nice, but it's not something I've ever seen in D&D.

FINAL THOUGHT:
Maybe it's time to start some "behind the scenes development of DDO2?" I mean, really. I'd like to see open world exploring and simple quests + instanced dungeonsin DDO2. It would be a blast to have that social, vast, open world DDO with DDO-like instancing integrated. Maybe even Sandbox, like Asheron's Call or Darkfall / Ultima Online? That would be really the best possible D&D experience in my opinion, being able to "steal" as a rogue, to create events like in RedDeadRedemption, etc.

I love DDO and will stay with it, but DDO2 would be a new pretender to the throne for years forward from now . More social, open world, more of D&D ruleset (heck, even in 4th edition) + the best from our current DDO and we have a new winner, lighter on the back-end.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

+20 True Reincarnate for your TWF; $30
Half-Orc Race; $19.95
Epic SoS; $49.95
Constant changes and nerf to this game; priceless.

Y'know what's really getting to me is the slowed down combat speed and this being touted as a fix to lag.

Ah I dunno man, the fastpaced combat is what DDO is about.

I just don't know anymore...

[krud]

Originally Posted by Calebro View Post

The more I think about it, the more I like STWF being implemented. Rangers essentially get it for free, making them King of TWF (as it should be).
Others now have the option if they devote enough resources (build points and stat raises) to get it.

Few are likely to do this, but the option is there. So Rangers are still TWF kings in most cases, but the extremely rare exception may occur.

LOL
And I give you this:

I would prefer to put STWF in as a selectable only feat for all (including rangers), minimum character level 18 (or BAB13 if they can't do that), and dex19 prereq. High dex builds would have no problem qualifying. Str builds would have to make some important stat decisions. No longer would it be max str and con, plus get all the attacks too. Might help get rid of the notion that "finesse builds are teh gimp" .

[Razcar]

Devs, will the the slowing down of swing speed for lower BAB's persist? If so, rogues will have both slower swing speed and loose 20% off-hand attacks.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Y'know what's really getting to me is the slowed down combat speed and this being touted as a fix to lag.

Nope, Eladrin has said in this thread that's not what its about.

Changing how collisions are detected is to deal with lag.

While they were at it, slowing down TWF was a deliberate TWF nerf that they just conviniently did at the same time.

[akiraproject24]

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:


Code:
Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Isnt tempest III currently the only form of stwf and my ranger is granted the line of twf feats so...what benefit am I getting tempest III and greater twf should give me 205%/180%

[Malthana]

Sorry...I read the first 25 pages then my eyes started to bleed.
I don't believe anyone has questioned the stated reason for these changes?

'Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise.' was the quote.

If some one can form a raid consisting of 2 clerics 2 casters 1 bard and 7 THW users, all with combat logs turned on, and then tell me there is no lag...then i believe this discussion should continue...if not then the Devs should be looking elsewhere for the cure.

[Ebforest60]

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.

Well said. This proposed change has far reaching affects. You can't just look at the pure Kensai/Tempest/Monk/Paladin...the builds that splash here and there look to be taking huge hits.

[Angelus_dead]

High dex builds would have no problem qualifying.

Well if it goes by BAB 13 then most Rogue19/Monk1 builds would find it impossible, as they don't get the BAB until no feat slots are left. But ignore that and suppose he did qualify: there's still the matter of that feat slot itself. How would it benefit the game to push Rogues (and many other typical TWF characters) to spend another feat slot on their combat style? I don't think anyone could say that Rogues have too many spare feats now.

What about the alternative: Giving STWF as a granted benefit to anyone who has GTWF and meets the requisite of BAB, dexterity, and/or ranger features? That way it's still a bonus to characters with higher dex, and still pushes TWF fighters to respec their stats, but it's not biased towards classes with a lot of free feats. It could even be based on current BAB/dex instead of naked stats, meaning that instead of being excluded from STWF, lower-dex builds be forced to equip dexterity gear for battle.

[krud]

What about the alternative: Giving STWF as a granted benefit to anyone who has GTWF and meets the requisite of BAB, dexterity, and/or ranger features? That way it's still a bonus to characters with higher dex, and still pushes TWF fighters to respec their stats, but it's not biased towards classes with a lot of free feats. It could even be based on current BAB/dex instead of naked stats, meaning that instead of being excluded from STWF, lower-dex builds be forced to equip dexterity gear for battle.

That works too.


"...and meets the requisite of BAB, dexterity, and/or ranger features."

I think bab, and dex prereqs would be enough. I still think rangers need have the same stat considerations as all other twf. It's too easy to just max str and con and get everything else for free.

[adRyft]

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

So, basically you're saying that this nerf is really all because Turbine is too frugal to install higher end equipment?

Fine. Whatever.

I'll look at this from a build perspective...

For those outside of being a ranger, it's a big thing to finally be able to cover the ability score spread to play a strength-based two weapon fighter. Two-handed fighting builds don't have to manage a 17 natural dexterity in order to qualify for the upper tiers of their line. A dexterity score that for many doesn't contribute to DPS in any way, or even towards a meaningful AC. And for this trouble, you want to make the two fighting styles *equal* in DPS, now? Look at how tight the ability scores need to be to get a gTWF paladin build that qualifies for DV4 sometime, and ask me why someone would bother going that route when they could instead just go with two-handed fighting, nerf their dexterity score, and have a higher strength score besides?

And for those who realized early on that the best way to optimize sneak attacks was to tack them onto a rapid-fire monk style, or to pursue two-weapon fighting feats to increase attack speed, this 100/80 nonsense is tantamount to lowering their DPS by 20%. It's a complete slap in the face. Do you want to give us a 20% generic DPS increase to make up for it? And what about the lower tiers of ability, when our 100/100 just became a 100/40? Ugh.

I do really appreciate that some people want to see some diversity with the disparity between the two fighting styles. I also understand that Turbine wants to address some lag issues.

But trying to kill these two birds with one stone, while creative, is also going to upset some folks when you do things as sloppy as this is looking to be.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

2) combine player dps data and tie it to variables outside of combat. Then use that variable and only have 1 dice roll per attack for damage i.e. with this weapon, this toon does 120-140 damage, random between 120-140 instead of rolling up everything during combat. Doesn't work at all because of monster imunities/resistances, not all parts of weapon damage apply to crits, etc.
3) reduce mob HP by the amount of the nerf to dps The raid bosses and some others could use a general HP reduction, but I'm not sure this change as proposed actually justifies it in any serious way
4) eliminate grazing hits, as it also adds dps lag Agreed, but they won't. This was one of their pet projects to keep bad..errr...new players happy.
5) eliminate DA, because it slows the game down, and you'll need to speed it up to compensate for this DPS slow down. I'm also a fan of turnbased, so we could go to turnbased too another pet project, we've been told 1000 times it will not change, give it up.

So I propose this: Allow full Lesser Reincarnation+20 tokens for every existing character. Provide full greensteel deconstruction for every existing character. We can all switch to THF with our SOS and not kill most of our characters. If the small planned DPS loss will kill your character is sucked to begin with. GS deconstruction is however long overdue and needed.

I notice a certain amount of exageration in this thread.

this 100/80 nonsense is tantamount to lowering their DPS by 20%.

I've seen this repeated frequently in this thread, and its wrong. That wouild be a 10% reduction in DPS.