Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Darksolar]

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	 20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
Tempest I	0	+5%	100%		85%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		95% 
Tempest III	+5%*	+5%	105%		100%
LW Master	0	+20%	100%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	+10%	110%		90%
Zeal		+10%	+10%	110%		90%
Alacrity	+10%	+10%	110%		90%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

Wind is 2.5% per tier on both MH/OH as well Zeal and Alacrity give it to both MH/OH
Fastest could be 14Pal/6Rgr 110%/95% (harsh to build)
Ranger sits at 105%/100% (still best dual wielders except for above maybe)
Unknown how 18Rgr/1-2Mnk would work as 107.5%/102.5% possible to cap the OH at 100% no matter what
Rogues are 100%/80% could give rogues a level 16 or 19(feat) only special ability(Light Weapon Master) granting them 20% OH when they wield a light weapon in OH getting 100%/100%

This gets rid of Superior Two Weapon Fighting Feat still makes rangers the best dual wielders but makes everyone else close.

Are Zeal/Alacrity still giving bonus's to attack speed with MH or just to double strike and I don't know exactly how these are affecting 2H users that would be nice to add to the original post.

[Borror0]

That's not true (or you switched to a different "it" from what Vvaanjilavv had been talking about).

Oops. You're right.

It is item number 5 that's the painful nerf to some builds, and it's that change which has negligible real benefit to DPS lag (#4 is also really minimal). If they're allowing STWF to bring back the current 100% offhand attack ratio, then the change is merely a nerf to feat slots and dex/BAB flexibility, which does nothing to reduce the server work during a raid battle (unless the characters were unable to fit STWF).

I know. In fact, my first real post in this thread suggested them to move the nerf portion of the change to a future update.

Backwards?

No.

not so fast bor.. we still need to check if it works

I'm assuming it will work, otherwise there is no point for any debate.

[Mister_Peace]

In other news ...
Turbine announces New Sale on +3 Lesser Hearts of Deconstruct Greensteel!

[Paragon]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
STWF        0    +20%    100%        100%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

This seems like a good proposition. However, it would still reduce the DPS output of a Tempest III ranger. As I understand it, Tempest III currently gets five offhand hooks per four attacks, putting an equivalent proc rate at 125%. This change would turn out just fine for most of us only if Tempest bonuses still stacked with STWF allowing for a total of 105% on-hand and 120% off-hand. In fact, that might actually increase DPS by a very slight amount, since on-hand does more damage.

The question is, will Tempest III rangers be able to also pick up STWF and get that 120% off-hand proc chance?

As it stands it can be very difficult to justify rangers against barbarians in epic content, the ranger needs all the help he/she can get.

[SisAmethyst]

Are Zeal/Alacrity still giving bonus's to attack speed with MH or just to double strike and I don't know exactly how these are affecting 2H users that would be nice to add to the original post.

As Eladrin posted in the first post:

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.

[Daehawk]

In other news ...
Turbine announces New Sale on +3 Lesser Hearts of Deconstruct Greensteel!

Hmm...I'll wait for the +3 Greater Decon Greensteel hearts =P returns more mats.

[Borror0]

No but they are SAYING its due to DPS lag.

Eladrin clearly stated that the nerf portion of this change was due to the fact he felt TWF was too powerful compared to THF:

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)"

If Eladrin would have wanted, he could have fixed DPS lag without nerfing TWF DPS. He felt it was a good opportunity to do it now since he was playing with the values anyhow but it was not necessary. The change that reduce the likelihood of DPS is the removal of detection checks for the off-hand, not the nerf to TWF DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

STWF is in no way a nerf to anyone. It's bonus to builds that get it. IE. Rangers if it's free and fighters who have the feats, and splash fighter who get some extra feats.

One kind of nerf is the proxy nerf, where the alternatives to an option are made more powerful. The option itself has not directly changed, but its relative position has weakened due to other things getting stronger.

For example, the introduction of TOD rings with Holy Burst was a proxy nerf for Monk builds using Kama or Quarterstaff. Likewise, adding an STWF ability which is only affordable to Fighters or Tempests is a proxy nerf to all other dual-wielding builds.

Fighters and Rangers should have benefits over other classes with TWF styles IMO

They already have a variety of benefits, and now they're getting more. The important question is if a TWF Fighter deserve to have his relative DPS increased compared to a TWF Rogue.

[k1ngp1n]

As already explained, you don't need to actually calculate the distance to compare it to the weapon reach. Instead of comparing (distance<weapon_reach) you can do (distance*distance<weapon_reach*weapon_reach). The latter choice is easier on the server because a sqrt is much slower than a multiply.

Edit: Math fail. Too tired.

[Angelus_dead]

The change that reduce the likelihood of DPS is the removal of detection checks for the off-hand

That's one of them, but switching Zeal and capstone from 10% speed into a 10% chance of +1 attack was another. Either way activating Zeal will increase your (THF) attacks in X seconds from 100 to 110, but the old version would also increase the number of physics checks to 110, while the new method piggybacks the added attacks on regular swings.

[hydra_ex]

5 multiplies and 3 additions is faster than a sqrt? Interesting. But i can see it, depending on the size of the integers used.

You'll have to do the multiplying anyway, since you have sqrt(sum(square(x,y,z))) > floating point [or whatever they use]. A_D says sum(square(x,y,z))>square(s) takes less effort.

At least, that's my understanding.

I wonder if it would be less intensive to have a system of polar co-ordinates centered on a raid boss, then simply check radii.

[Chai]

Don't forget that you said this several pages ago Chai:



It hasn't been tested yet, so...

Im still there dude, still there.

[noinfo]

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

I actually don't mind the idea behind the changes, less calculations=less lag. It is a balancing game now to try and get the formular right and I am sure people are very greatful that you have come right out before even putting on Lam and discussing it.

Just a couple of things since you are trying to ballance 2 handed vs 2 weapon is that the latter requires a extra feat and double the weapons grind. The weapon grind I don't mind as you can mix and match benefits which I believe ballances things out, but there is an extra feat involved and this should not be discounted.

Also how bout a review of grazing hits while at it?...

Sorry had to try...

[Chai]

You'll have to do the multiplying anyway, since you have sqrt(sum(square(x,y,z))) > floating point [or whatever they use]. A_D says sum(square(x,y,z))>square(s) takes less effort.

At least, that's my understanding.

I wonder if it would be less intensive to have a system of polar co-ordinates centered on a raid boss, then simply check radii.

Or we could just go back to hex.

I take a five foot step and full attack with full power attack. heh.

[Vengeance777]

Will this fix the massive lag spikes everyone gets when running to the shrine/chests in Shroud after everything's dead? Still want to know what causes that. The DPS is long over, something else has to be causing it.

[Sirslapemsack]

I have a question as far as a way to reduce lag altogether. Say you have a rogue backstabbing for 9d6+16. (just an example) instead of the game rolling 9 seperate dice, why not one roll with a floor of 25 in this example. 9d6 gives floor of 9+16=25. Then with max roll of 54+16. so basically youd be making one roll with a base giving damage from 25-70. Thats one roll as opposed to 9. similair things could be done accross the board for all classes.

[Philam]

This change as a whole leaves a sour taste in my mouth. You're changing a fundamental aspect of a loved combat style. There is nothing cooler to me than watching Fozzie tear through things at mind numbing speeds.

So just how slowly will we swing now? Here is my point: people expect their Monks and other TWF's to swing fast - it's what they're supposed to do. So now what - will I be sounding out the bionic man sound effect in my head everytime I swing? A monk or a Ranger swinging slowly would just feel wrong.


Yes, TWF causes DPS lag. But removing the cause of a problem doesn't solve the problem, it merely masks it. There will be some unknown addition in the future for TWF'rs, and I guarantee the "problem" will rear it's ugly head down the road at some point, mark my words.


Others have also made the point that this problem only occurs in Raids. I agree with this - I can't think of a time when I've had DPS lag in a 6 man quest. There are only 9 raids right now. Compare that with somewhere over 200 quests. (Granted most people run raids at end game - I get that too.) It would seem a lot simpler to me to alter those raids to stop the "swarm the boss" method that is really causing this lag. (I really likes one posters idea of changing the spawn rate of gnolls in part 4 of Shroud - that was very innovative.)

Another good idea I've heard is to bump raids down to 10 man groups - dungeon scaling would by default handle in a fair manner the necessary drop in difficulty, so why not?


I would like to see this tested on Lammannia first. I've even posted a thread on the Lammannia forum to put together (another) Shroud DPS Lag test. My suggestion is roll out each change on a step by step basis. Change the physics first, and allow us to test it. Maybe it will be enough.

Well said! Bottom line is the devs have already made up their mind! This is just a polite way of saying its coming! It's a BAD idea and I hope the devs follow the overall player base sentiment and don't implement it!!! DA was a bad idea and suppose to fix the lag and it did not work! Do not take us for the fools, you devs have already made up your minds, but don't do it!!

Ph

[Alintalkin]

Well now before I log for the night just thought I would say:
R.I.P
Monk, Rogue, and Warchanter, and battle clerics/fvs/arcanes.
R.I.P
Diversity.
R.I.P
Twitch THF's

Let a new era reign.

Edit: btw this is by far the fastest growing thread I have seen, and most of it isn't saying "Nice idea."
Yes I understand that this is to fix "lag" but the DPS lag is in most part caused by outdated servers. Replace/update servers and I am willing to bet an ingame copper piece that you will see DPS lag decrease.
Turbine, there are many customers that have invested time and money into their builds. Many GS items. If you do this it will affect the vast majority of the DDO population, like my first post in this thread I ask again, please don't do this.

[Chai]

Well now before I log for the night just thought I would say:
R.I.P
Monk, Rogue, and Warchanter, and battle clerics/fvs/arcanes.
R.I.P
Diversity.
R.I.P
Twitch THF's

Let a new era reign. For the worst.

Edit: btw this is by far the fastest growing thread I have seen, and most of it isn't saying "Nice idea."

This is just due to min maxers gravitating to the most powerful thing in the game, and stamping them out, cookie cutter style. If the game didnt require you to min max so much and cater to this mentality that you are either effective or youre gimped, you could build whatever you wanted to.

[Aspenor]