Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Chai]

Well, we are not in epic Levels yet for DDO and I guess we will not see levels beyond 20 very soon anyway. If we finally get there then we still can add STWF to this time...

Yeah, then the mobs will be tossing max empowered hellballs and epic ruins at us. You think 500 point disintegrates are bad, wait until its 1500. Wait until all the trash mobs cast dragon knight too.

Epic levels open a pandoras box that is likely not be viable in DDO. Its even way broken in PnP.

But hey, youll have STWF, heh.

[Philam]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought DA fixed lag?

Ph

[Sirslapemsack]

Sorry guys, this is a nerf plain and simple. The problem in HIGHER level raids ISNT dps lag. Ive done ToD, VoD, Shroud, etc. at every point in the day. And guess what everybody.................lag isnt as bad when theres less ppl on the server. Could it be, and this is just speculation of course, that the lag isnt from DPS in one instance?? maybe its because we are running on a server that needs to be updated, overhauled, FIXED period?? Everybody knows this you are all just buying into this, "change" and discussing instead of saying what needs to be said. Of course there will be no response to my post because the truth hurts and eladrin will never address such truths.............Theres a reason

Well, heres a question about the new "changes" aka Nerf......Will a monk now stand there throwing left jabs only and 50% of the time throw a right cross?? Will a TWF Fighter now just hold his off handed weapon still until it procs? I just want to know because i would like the animations to reflect how the combat is actually playing out. Since players over all DPS in a raid is going to be so significally reduced, since after all, thats the only problem for lag right, are raid bosses HP going to be equally reduced?? I mean, our survival in so many raids depends on Downing the Raid names in a quick manner right?? Or are the raid bosses going to have the same amount of HP and nerf our dps therefore forcing healers to sip more pots and therefore visit the DDO store a little more often to stock up. These are the reall questions that need to be answered........oh but yeah great post.

[Chai]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought DA fixed lag?

Ph

Yeah, all those noobs zerging waterworks were lagging our raids.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah, then the mobs will be tossing max empowered hellballs and epic ruins at us. You think 500 point disintegrates are bad, wait until its 1500.

Epic levels open a pandoras box that is likely not be viable in DDO. Its even way broken in PnP.

But hey, youll have STWF, heh.

I don't know if epic is broken so much as it is really intended for hardcore DDO powergamers. To me, even tho I am more than a casual player but far from obsessed with gear, I think this game ends at Amarath casual/normal.

Even the ToD raid is ludicrously inaccessible for the fact that you have to grind mindlessly just to get boot ingredients for most people to accept you (honestly I wouldn't wanna go without them anyways). I think they went way overboard with that tho and it should be changed.

[Cyr]

New numbers are still a nerf to TWF. A very serious nerf to monks and rogues still. A terrible idea is still a terrible idea. Remove this balance junk completely from the physics change and this change will go from hated to no problem very quickly.

It's getting really tiring to wait for the next major nerf packaged as an improvement to the game.

The game has become less fun since Mod 9 released. System changes and proliferation of bugs are ruining this game.

[ddoer]

if you have identified physics detection of the 2nd attack of TWF is one of the main cause of dps lag problem, why not simply skip the detection or use a time checking logic that, for example, any physicals detection check will be valid for an interval (say, 0.5s) and any subsequence swing won't trigger any detection again before the interval of the previous check has expired. And keep everything else unchanged.

use a solution that keep it simple, stupid.

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

given that most of the dps lag come from TWF in raid, I don't see how it could help to reduce lagging at all. as mentioned in another post, most (if not all) dps lag happen in single target raid scenario. I have never seen THF moving attack cause any lag myself. i view this as simply a nerf to THF because TWF got nerf'd with the proposed changes.

this change will also create a balancing issue between melees and casters when dealing a group of mobs. what do you expect a THFer to do in front of a few epic mobs?

[Borror0]

But if I am reading this properly....a bunch of multi-class builds are getting the short end of the stick......how is this a good thing?

It fixes DPS lag. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

[SisAmethyst]

Yet...

How much of the problem is the physics detection?

Compared to just a damage roll, for example [1d6+5] like:

considering seconds of current time divided by ten would give a more or less random value between 0,0 and 5,9:
round(0,0..5,9 + 1) + 5

the collision detection is much more complex like

* get x1:y1:z1 coordinates of mob
* get x2:y2:z2 coordinates of player
* get distance between this coordinates = square root of ( (x2-x1)²+(y2-y1)²+(z2-z1)² )
* check if weapon is long enough and distance is short enough to reach the mob at all
* also check if there is a wall between both coordinates (even more complex then the distance)

However this is as said only a subset of things that produce lag. Another one is for example the actual data that is shared between Client and Server.

[Larvenk]

What is happening to the thf fighters? Do they loose the 10%?

[Daehawk]

What is happening to the thf fighters? Do they loose the 10%?

THF can proc Double Strikes as well.

For Example: If you are a Paladin using Epic SoS and have Zeal active on you. You have a 10% chance to proc a Double Strike. If you use Exalted Smite you have a chance while using THF to proc 2 Exalted Smites.

[Angelus_dead]

It fixes DPS lag.

That's not true (or you switched to a different "it" from what Vvaanjilavv had been talking about).

There are really five different changes announced here:
1. Merge physical checking for offhand attacks.
2. Switch some attack-speed increases into percentage chances for another attack hook.
3. Remove glancing blows while moving.
4. Switch some attack-speed increases to be mainhand-only.
5. Reduce offhand attack ratio unless you get it back with STWF.

It is item number 5 that's the painful nerf to some builds, and it's that change which has negligible real benefit to DPS lag (#4 is also really minimal). If they're allowing STWF to bring back the current 100% offhand attack ratio, then the change is merely a nerf to feat slots and dex/BAB flexibility, which does nothing to reduce the server work during a raid battle (unless the characters were unable to fit STWF).

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

Backwards? DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles is short-term gain, but nerfed TWF builds is long-term pain.

[eonfreon]

Ouch, so with these changes my Paladin will have to change out Extend for STWF to barely keep my dps up to my current level?

Yes, I know Extend isn't "needed" but it hurts dps even more to have to constantly recast Zeal and Divine Favor during boss fights. Even casting while running from fight to fight can be an incredible pain in the butt.

Also, how can you mention including the STWF Feat and not give us any indication of what the prereqs might be?

Seems like you're trying to do too much all at once.

And who came up with the inelegant idea of "double strikes" to replace of the speed attack increase of Zeal and Fighter Capstone? And I'm unclear whether Ranger Tempest 1 losing it's speed bonus too? Is the only bonus (besides a shield bonus and reduction of to-hit penalty) to Tempest 1 an additional +10% to proc an offhand attack?

Like someone else said, just have the offhand attacks piggyback on the collision detection. Assume that there is always an attack opportunity when the first hand has a chance to hit. That cuts down the lag from the second calculation AND doesn't add another system in. Since we get that with the supposed STWF, then it won't even matter since it will be a 100% chance anyway, you're just making it cost more and be harder to do (by requiring STWF), but it will be done anyway, as per the system you've put in, when everyone finally figures out how to fit in STWF.

And leave attack speed bonuses as is, please.

[Angelus_dead]

You have a 10% chance to proc a Double Strike. If you use Exalted Smite you have a chance while using THF to proc 2 Exalted Smites.

And that's a buff to THF builds, who did not previously have a way to get two Smites simultaneously. That's in addition to them not being nerfed like TWFs are...

[Chai]

Backwards? DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles is short-term gain, but nerfed TWF builds is long-term pain.

DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles was long term forum moaning. Made your beds, now reside in them.

[Angelus_dead]

* get distance between this coordinates = square root of ( (x2-x1)²+(y2-y1)²+(z2-z1)² )

Only noob programmers (or pedantic pedagogues) would ever take a square root to compare distance. x*x>y*y implies sqrt(x*x)>sqrt(y*y)

[SisAmethyst]

Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

...
extend

...
STWF

Well I know that I could swap STWF with Extend that is why I said nearly impossible, but then it is still unclear if STWF would need DEX 19 which is unlikely on a Paladin. Also it reduce one of my major damage Buff like Zeal as the Mana resources of a paladin are still limited which is the reason for using Extend.

But even for other Classes except for Fighters STWF is difficult to get.

[Angelus_dead]

DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles was long term forum moaning. Made your beds, now reside in them.

Why do you keep saying that? Where did that idea come from?

[kruggar]

It fixes DPS lag. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

not so fast bor.. we still need to check if it works

[Galacticus]

No one knows that it wont either.

Some of the more patient and intelligent people are reserving judgement until they see the actual results. But since they asked for BOTH instinctual feedback AND post test feedback, people are providing it, on BOTH sides currently.

Dude I understand and I've been watching this thread all day since Eladrin has posted it. I'm not making any decisions to my playing till they come out with a final fix. Honestly, I've been here since day 1 and have seen soooo many nerfs, I'm just saddened when I see stuff like this cause I know how much time and effort we(Vets) put into our toons and to have them nerfed, it's just ashamed.

I just hope we can get deconstruct...that will heal alot of wounds.