Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution....sorry but I just cannot shake the feeling that this nerf and the new +5 hearts go hand in hand...their only saving grace is at least they had the decency to announce both on the same day instead of announcing this then announcing +5 hearts later....decieving people into thinking it's for the good of stopping lag but instead all along it was for the profit in their pocket.

[caution]

We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

The changes seem fair and reasonable in addressing server side CPU load/lag related issues. I do not believe it will fix all lag which I believe is network based.


My feedback is that you should expose combat modifiers (such as main/offhand proc %) on the character sheet!


I believe if you report the attack speed/chain impacts, people are more likely to accept, adopt, and tweak as required.

Just looking at this thread, there is a lot of confusion and emotion over the impact to perceived benefits and nerfs. The people who complain about nerfs are never going to be happy with anything that impacts the investment they have in the exploits in their build.


To disclose my influences, I have been a long time player and as much as I hate some of the changes to date (eg. server side casting), I do appreciate that changes they bring (even DA!). Some of my characters will be nerfed by this change.

[hydra_ex]

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution....sorry but I just cannot shake the feeling that this nerf and the new +5 hearts go hand in hand...their only saving grace is at least they had the decency to announce both on the same day instead of announcing this then announcing +5 hearts later....decieving people into thinking it's for the good of stopping lag but instead all along it was for the profit in their pocket.

I have to disagree with you there; the hearts are there to assay people's fears that their characters are going to be gimp, and provide a solution.

Such a drastic change, to which the devs are actually paying close attention, is, IMO, an honest attempt at the betterment of the game.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.

I would think the engine would consist of pretty much everything important to running the game...including the hardware they use....altho I know what your saying too.

[Cetus]

Hang on.

So you nerfed AC, made that pratically uselss. Now you want to go and nerf TWF. Leaving THF the supreme. Yes TWF is currently higher DPS on a single target, but against multiple targets THF wins easily. its not just rangers and fighters that TWF. Loads of classes and multiclasses choose this option. Doing this you want to make THF the ruler. Destroying all those 12/7/1 ect and all the versitilliy in the game. There will be little point in making a TWF barbarian now. You gona give me back the ingredients put into my Mineral Heavy Picks and give me a LR token so i can change my toon into using GA?

Rangers will become the king of TWF, better than fighters. Again destroying versitility and through this what people love about this game. i dont want every person i see either playing either a tempest ranger or axe wielding barbarian.

why not compress all the effect numbers into 1 number or something along them lines rather than upheaving the whole combat system. This is gona tick a lot of people off and drive many away from the game if this is put into action


Definantly NOT /signed

This effect is only proposed and I'm already getting ticked off.

Noone is complaining about the combat system thus far for the most part, lag is an issue that is dealth with only in a handful of situations resulting from a chance style of gameplay- a GLOBAL change is not necessary and is hurting the player base.

[Yaga_Nub]

.....
Definantly NOT /signed

Good thing that there's nothing to sign so you just wasted a perfectly mediocre rant.

[Toddlwarren32]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

This really is a good idea, and I hope that it’s something that the devs will consider. Why make a system-wide change in order to resolve an issue that occurs in certain content? That’s like using a sledgehammer to cut diamonds.

[Chai]

Your evil!!!!!

*throws another log into the fire*

Yeap that totally it, TWF lost the rock off, and now they have to come back to hell with the rest of us. You dont want to know what their terms were for the challenge.

[eeeeeee]

If you make the change can you give a free tr to all who have twf. Most builds will be useless gimps by now

[mehlinda]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

Finally, what I wanted to say but didn't think of..change the few instances where it's an issue instead of changing it for 90% of the rest of the content...bravo

[EyeRekon]

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

I highly doubt that DDO's combat system is the most sophisticated of higher-volume MMOs. Computation Resources are cheap and on-demand nowadays. You can rent an 8-Core server for $0.80/hr for as long as you need it.

[hydra_ex]

I would think the engine would consist of pretty much everything important to running the game...including the hardware they use....altho I know what your saying too.

I suppose when I think about it, "engine" sounds physical; but its just software. Of course, its different from the initial code; by (poor) analogy, consider DDO to be a car. The game engine is the toolbox and usage of the tools used to fix it, and the code is each tool itself.

So, from our perspective, we don't know if we have a faulty tool, or if our toolbox itself is just a little weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine

[Nevthial]

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.

If this is the case then why do we all get the same level of lag at the same times on vastly different systems and only in the same raids?

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

[Persnoody]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

bravo.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I have to disagree with you there; the hearts are there to assay people's fears that their characters are going to be gimp, and provide a solution.

Such a drastic change, to which the devs are actually paying close attention, is, IMO, an honest attempt at the betterment of the game.

Yeah gimped after the fact of the matter that they are going to nerf now viable multi-class builds and give them the "option" to ungimp themselves. We all know that many succesful multi-class builds would benefit more ffrom a +5 heart than having to buy 2 +3's.

It's just how like I had all kinds of multi-class builds that were viable until Amarath came out and now I basically won't play any of them until I reinc them.

I guess the option being there is nice, but I don't see many people wanting this. I just see them striking with this now because there is a whole new crowd now that do not know what is going on and it's not going to affect them and once again the people that have been around a while are the lab rats.

Another reason I think so many vets are jaded....the new players get warned not to do what we constantly have to be subjected to......how do I sign up for being the "NEW" player?

[SisAmethyst]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to...

Ok, I like this changed numbers quite more then the initial ones ...

* Only when wielding two weapons.

So finally the Silver Flame -1 Club on the Delaras Quest chain has a value?

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Uhm, I am absolutly unsure how to fit in an additional feat like STWF in most builds, at least for a Paladin it would be nearly impossible...

[Borror0]

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.

While true, the problem is not with the engine.

DDO does have a lot of tests going on every second; although it did nothing for 2 years, now, because we have the correct circumstances, we're paying the price.

Exactly. It's the same thing that happened with Dungeon Alert. When they first designed DDO, they didn't expect that we'd run through quests while so few monsters. Fastforward three years later and the burden on the servers was insane (Koster said that the average server load for a SOE game was 44% pathing and those didn't have collision tests) and they had to lower it because it was too expensive to be sustainable.

It's not something that they could foresee three years ahead and its presence has made DDO we love, but it's a problem now.

[Kwyjibo]

So this isn't going to be constructive, and is my initial reaction.

I thought DA was intro'd into the game to resolve the lag issues? Obviously it didn't. So can we get rid of it? (rhetorical since we all know the answer)

And now we have to accept yet another nerf because...um...yea...the staff threw their hands up and surrendered? Oh wait they didn't surrender, they created yet another work around.

When this doesn't fix the problem (and it probably won't), will we return to the current system (yea again, rhetorical).

I'm not sure why Turbine thinks the "throw a dart at the dart board and hope to hit the bulls-eye" is a viable problem solving methodology. My customers certainly expect better from me. I can't imagine telling one of my customers "sorry but you need to change the way you do business because I can't fix the problem".

Why can't you just fix the problem and keep the game as is? I can't be the only one that is tired of creating and maturing characters only to have Turbine change the rules...

/endrage

[IronClan]

This still remains the same as DA. Aside from DA not actually doing anything about lag, even if it had, it would be the same as your car not being able to do the proper highway speed, so you instead merely drive on the secondary roads (side streets) instead of fixing the car. This is the same thing. Instead of fixing the problem of the hardware and its architecture not scaling correctly, reduce what is done with the hardware. This is going well beyond mere optimization of how things get done, to changing WHAT gets done.

What server machines do they use, and which ones should they upgrade too?

For my 2c I don't like how this change seems to throw away an elegant working as it should TWF system for a kludged inelegant "double strike" mechanic... In that sense I agree it's a little like DA, there are probably better ways to achieve the same result just like DA and the possible alternatives to it, however they may end up being things that the really twitch/hard core players wont like...

A small global reduction in combat speed (and even movement speed) would solve a LOT of lag problems... and probably make the game more approachable and easier to understand for new players who come from games like NWN (which has a more relaxed speed)... Put a "sprint" key in and a fatigue meter and the slow down actually gives a little added "tactics" to the game like sprinting away from the center of an AOE spell for example... Could even open up some new feats like Knock Down, and Endurance feats. Slower players get to the next mob slower so they do less DPS across the whole server, so this lowers total server overhead... Without anyone actually feeling less powerful or being nerfed...

[vVAnjilaVv]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

Couldn't agree more...another huge mistake of making this game F2P.....anyone with an internet connection can play this game now. Not saying that's a bad thing, but if people playing on prehistoric machines are borking everyone else's play perhaps this should be addressed before a massive combat nerf.