Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[dasein18]

I think I found the solution!
All weapons now do as much damage as masterwork.

Turbine can now down grade to Tandy computers and have no lag issues.

[Solace183]

This is exactly what i said in an earlier post.

While two-weapon fighting fighters and two-weapon fighting ranges each have their advantages, the MIAN advantage of Tempest is that a TWF ranger would attack faster/more often than an equal level TWF fighter.

Now, a TWF 20 fighter with STWF and capstone can get the exact same offhand proc chance as a TWF Tempest III Ranger, but with 5% more double-strike chance! Thus, fighters actually attack faster/more often than tempest rangers!

And more, an Arcane Archer ranger can get the same offhand proc chance with only *1* feat investment (STWF) as a tempest ranger, without wasting 3 feats (Dodge, mobility, spring attack, OTWF), and while still being able to whip out a bow and manyshot +5 slayer arrows at some poor mob.

The new table seems okay-ish, though i'm not completely onboard with the changes, but STWF completely borks the whole deal!

This is, unfortunately, what I was afraid of.

Although, it really does seem like an oversight... At the very least, Tempest III 'should' be buffed to a 10% mainhand attack speed... Although I don't feel like this addresses the issue as a whole. Perhaps a side benefit of 100% str on tempest offhand, due to the investment... Although in the spirit of D&D, I feel like Tempests should be -the- TWF-er... It just seems like a 20 capstoned TWF Fighter would outshine with the +dmg from feats, kensai, and crit modifier changes...

Again, I'm not crunching any numbers, just hoping that this gets addressed sooner rather than later.

It just seems like with the AP and Feat investment for the PrE Tempest (I-III) that the return wouldn't be worth it under this new measure, particularly if S*** becomes an option. While I realize that fighters must invest (semi) heavily into Dex to get it.

[EyeRekon]

I have 3 exaplnations:
1. Luck.
2. Superbly good connection by pure chance.
3. Your groups need more DPS.

Note that DPS lag only happens occasionally in certain areas, including, but not limited to: End of a portal in the shroud, end of VoD, judge/jailer in ToD.

DPS lag almost always happens in several areas, including, but not limited to: Shroud part 4, ToD part 2, ToD part 3.

4. He plays at hours when the server has fewer players

[vVAnjilaVv]

Aside: This thread has over a thousand replies. If the amount of rage keeps going at this rate, The Fury may be able to cross the planar boundaries and go PMS on Eberron.

And the marketplace tent was JUST finished being rebuilt

Well, I am beginning to think this is Shavarath part two...'cept the true iedentity of the masterminds behind the madness of Xoriat comes to light....they are actually the Devs ...or should I say that with a grumpy face......



now I am just

[krud]

They could always put STWF in as a selectable only feat for everyone (even rangers), and keep the 19dex prereq. A little something for high dex characters. People may just have to rearrange stats a little, instead of simply max str and con.

[donotdirect1]

And so would end any claim that this game had anything to do with D&D.

Static numbers rolled per attack chain does not end synergy with D&D. I'm not saying to average everything, I'm saying to ask less questions.

In PnP we skipped PLENTY of rolls, and I'm sincerely tired of people thinking that DDO and D&D are designed so differently. When we wanted to speed play, we rolled less. Same deal here. Less rolls, less questions, less lag.

So what happens when they twitch? They get to start over in the attack chain and hope for better rolls. A simple mechanic that allows you to play on the numbers. If a sword and board rolls low for a good portion of his attack chain while tanking, he shield blocks because that would be more effective at the moment.

Haste is fine, cause you'll just be making more attack chains.

If you are afraid that for some reason static numbers would be more like WoW, no worries. This game is nothing like it, and more static damage for your attack chain isn't going to change the game dramatically, as the proposed change most certainly will.

Want to add superior two weapon fighting on top of this suggestion? It'll actually work even better with an even number of attacks. And to those rangers complaining that Fighter's who TWF will be better, it was always designed that way. The fighter is supposed to be MASTER of combat, that's why he gets next to 0 skills.

This thread is a monster, and there is alot going on. There is very little in the way that I will actually be heard.

The best thing to do, instead of making a really destructive proposal and then amending it to a slightly less destructive proposal, is to let US vote.

1. Phantom Misses on nearly all off hand attacks until you spend 4 feats

2. Static Damage every attack chain

A. A possible 8th attack through STWF

B. Remove splashing damage from THF

______________________________
1. No thanks, we have a combat core that works, it's just slow.

2. Static Damage and less rolling? But retain randomness every attack chain? Sure if it will decrease lag.

A. Why not, STWF is a real feat. Lower BAB classes suffer a bit, but always have and will remain so.

B. Twitching, in my opinion, is an exploit. If you want to hit multiple enemies that is what cleave, and great cleave have been made to do, and what whirlwind attack has always been meant to do. Be thankful for your THF feats and time your cleaves better.

[hydra_ex]

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.

I definitely agree.

However, I don't think its that black and white; this decision is for the benefit of their game directly, not just to earn money off the store. If it were just like flipping a switch to write better code, then they would do it. Unfortunately, at this point, its too difficult. Really, the sequence of problems leading to this is the following:
1. Progressive attack bonuses leave melees dealing tons of damage.
2. Caster are overbuffed.
3. Caster's firewall is nerfed. Greensteel is released.
4. Precedent set, continue to add in items.
5. Reach critical mass: DPS lag.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth

As the rumor mill has been rumbling for 2 1/2 years about a 3rd game!

Could it be?

Anyways, If our MAIN issues cant be fixed, maybe that would be best!

As for the people flaming Turbine for a step in the right direction, I heard WOW has a 30 day free trial!

[vVAnjilaVv]

That doesnt get rid of the lag that the TWFers are solely responsible for, due to being too uber.

/rolls eyes.

Your evil!!!!!

*throws another log into the fire*

[Gol]

Stepping back from number crunching for a minute...

First off, thank you very much (Eladrin, others) for being willing to have an open discussion about this while there is still time to adjust the design.

I see that you're trying to kill the DPS problem. We all agree, it is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. I think most of the complaints here are that you're mucking with game balance at the same time. I realize game balance isn't perfect, but right now it's moderately balanced for the price you pay. TWF costs at least 3 feats and twice the grind of THF. Almost half your feats, and doubling the ingredients for your weapons of choice.

IMO, the best solution would be to fix one without "fixing" the other. DPS imbalance is ok at long as it comes at a price, and that's the way it stands today. That price makes people think twice about it. Nerf it too much (as I personally feel these changes will do), and people will stop using it.

It seems to me that making the offhand hook collision detection 100% dependent on the corresponding mainhand attack will result in a 50% reduction of collision detections during TWF attacking. That's huge - 50%. The remaining overhead of applying effects remains, but can be addressed by implementing a quasi-randomizer that has much less overhead than full blown randomization. Even a 20% improvement in CPU usage here would have great benefit, and none of this would require an overhaul to the TWF system that simply isn't needed.

My 2 copper. Signing out.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

The "high BAB" part scares me. Rogues already have enough trouble at high level because of the increasing fortification they face. To not allow rogues, especially dex based rogues, access to the best TWF feat doesn't make sense from a balance (or "fun") standpoint.

Please make it DEX 19. Or... if you want to help those who built for the old 17DEX max, make it "one of 1) DEX 19 or 2) DEX 17 + BAB 16"

[vVAnjilaVv]

I definitely agree.

However, I don't think its that black and white; this decision is for the benefit of their game directly, not just to earn money off the store. If it were just like flipping a switch to write better code, then they would do it. Unfortunately, at this point, its too difficult. Really, the sequence of problems leading to this is the following:
1. Progressive attack bonuses leave melees dealing tons of damage.
2. Caster are overbuffed.
3. Caster's firewall is nerfed. Greensteel is released.
4. Precedent set, continue to add in items.
5. Reach critical mass: DPS lag.

So what your basically saying is this game is turning into a coding nightmare because the Devs lack proper foresight?

All I have to say is last time they messed with the combat we all know how that went....seriously, I never have to deal with so much lag it's unplayable...and I really think this is an extreme solution........just like the orginal combat fix that lasted for what...2 days?

[Borror0]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

[hydra_ex]

As the rumor mill has been rumbling for 2 1/2 years about a 3rd game!

Could it be?

Anyways, If our MAIN issues cant be fixed, maybe that would be best!

If you had been paying closer attention, you would have realized that the nuance conveyed is that DDO2 is not being released, as they are instead devoting effort to fixing a difficult issue instead.

So, no, there is no DDO2. There probably won't ever be, actually. Aside from DPS lag, the engine is relatively robust.

[eeeeeee]

Im not senator but if i was id VETO this bill, my main toon is thf but i like the lag the way it is and i play on a basic windows vista laptop. Ive been in abbots where hes dead and i showed him at 50 percent but i still endured!

[Lighti]

Hang on.

So you nerfed AC, made that pratically uselss. Now you want to go and nerf TWF. Leaving THF the supreme. Yes TWF is currently higher DPS on a single target, but against multiple targets THF wins easily. its not just rangers and fighters that TWF. Loads of classes and multiclasses choose this option. Doing this you want to make THF the ruler. Destroying all those 12/7/1 ect and all the versitilliy in the game. There will be little point in making a TWF barbarian now. You gona give me back the ingredients put into my Mineral Heavy Picks and give me a LR token so i can change my toon into using GA?

Rangers will become the king of TWF, better than fighters. Again destroying versitility and through this what people love about this game. i dont want every person i see either playing either a tempest ranger or axe wielding barbarian.

why not compress all the effect numbers into 1 number or something along them lines rather than upheaving the whole combat system. This is gona tick a lot of people off and drive many away from the game if this is put into action


Definantly NOT /signed

[SisAmethyst]

... Initial thought, sound good to tackle lag but I am very skeptical about the nerf!

We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

... quite some posts till now but first of all thanks to Eladrin and Tolero to keep on reading this! Took me quite a while to read throught the posts (over 40 pages when I started to write that post) and already interesting modifications have been proposed like:

...Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity...

I know and understand that we can not just add more hardware to solve the issue as the times and places with lag are usualy spikes and it is absolutly uneconomic to have just doubled the system power but 95% those power would be in idle mode. So it wouldn't pay of to only solve it by new Hardware if there wouldn't be improvements on the Code basis.
Regarding this I am even positive attuned for drastical changes.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later.

Cool, bought!

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

Sounds like an interesting addition to the game...

However I am very skeptical about the nerf as it will have an immense impact even on what builds been considered viable. I mean this game is all about the DPS and I know that a time ago Rangers and Monks for example wasn't considered being much worth and Rogues still have a hard time.

I see that it partly makes sense to bring TWF and THF inline and closer together. A Fighter Kensai should be King with a Weapon whatever it is a Greataxe or dual wielding Kopesh or Bastard Swords. But it is not that easy to break that rule down on each Character.
It is even not only the point to say TWF add more Weapon Effects while THF has higher damage. If I fight a Marut I will switch to my Anarchic weapon, if I fight a Ice Flenser I would switch to a Fire Burst Outsider Bane (well, still need that one ), that is all about the weapon effect. I will not respec from TWF to THF and back each time I need a different Weapon effect

That to say for different Weapon effects you usualy already would switch the Weapon or already have created a specific Greensteal Weapon so in my eyes the argument for TWF get flawed. I know not an ideal example but should show how much worth the point 'weapon effect' over THF damage has. So the additional need of increasing DEX to qualify for the TWF chain would probably overweight the net result. Also the difference between the value of GTWF and Tempest seems too be heavy. While I am less concerned about the Figthers itself (I know and understand that it will hit Figthers very hard!) that are specialized for a Weapon and Fighting style I am worried about the impact for Monks (boosts) and especialy Rogues.

Well even a Paladin. I mean the route to go today for a Palading is TWF as there is for example no 'Holy Sword' recipe for a Greataxe but it is for Khopesh. Giving the nerf would not make them suddenly available but limit the overal damage output of a Paladin down to a THF Falchion user.

So from the numbers I have seen so far the nerf may probably too hughe and the values should be thought over.

Further you change the feeling of the fighting. Each time I was on my Bard that spams out haste and I go back to my Figther I have the feeling of being in slow motion. I know I should step away from hard drugs like speed but it is just awesome to be hasted But here is an important point, how to feel to play a character. If you now replace some of the speed bonus by adding an other hit, then you remove that feeling and it completly change how different Characters play. If a Barbarian in the end feels to play the same way as a Ranger or Paladin then probably a lot of fun part of this game is removed.

If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

Mhhh... I don't like the attitude that swings with this sentence like 'if you not like this proposal we will nerf you on another place'... ahm, well it shouldn't come down to the point that you just want to steal some cookies...

Both are important for us players, the DPS as it is one of the major elements and a lag free game play.

I'll take the nerf and smile, it doesn't bother me much personally but you know that folks invested a lot in these characters so be sure to make them feel like they are still getting value for their build choices.

Absolutly

But I would like to see this in action, or better say, feel this... I really should take a look on Lamannia ...

[Yaga_Nub]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.

[hydra_ex]

So what your basically saying is this game is turning into a coding nightmare because the Devs lack proper foresight?

Well, not exactly. It was rather later Dev's lack of hindsight not to include items which have that effect, but, as borror0 mentioned, DDO does have a lot of tests going on every second; although it did nothing for 2 years, now, because we have the correct circumstances, we're paying the price.

There might be other efficient things they could have done, but especially under a deadline, easier/faster is better, especially when it had few foreseeable consequences. 2-3 years is a lot for a computer game, especially when Turbine's just starting to try to dig its roots in and grow.

[Alexandryte]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

But ....monks are left in cold. As it is, we are losing the self-haste that Wind Stance provided since the part that remains does not stack with Haste (spell).

While Dark may still be ok (I honestly dont play dark....I prefer more utility)....why would a raid want more than 1 light monk (if that)?

I may not be able to see all the pieces of the grand puzzle here....would you mind giving some insight? If there are other things on the list we dont see (like GS wraps finally coming out) it would be nice to know.