Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Ethias]

I was thinking the same thing... If this is in fact a way to improve lag? why is the option there for 100% proc..

If this is in fact a way to lower TWF DPS in disquise of fixing DPS lag, I would say just come out and say we want to NERF TWF. Don't make the same mistake you did with Dungeon Alert

If you go back to the initial post:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack

I assume piggybacking at 100% is still better than the current system

edit: doh, got beaten to it.

[Coldin]

Ick. All this talk of doubling shroud ingredients to make Two Handed weapons is a bit insane in my opinion. Wouldn't this make going TWF better than THF simply because even while you're working on the second weapon, you still have the first to play with.

[Angelus_dead]

Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.
...
A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack
...
It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements

An interesting side note:
Will the attacks made as part of Cleave (and similar abilities) include the standard chances for offhand strikes, double strike, and glancing blows?

Hopefully the answer is yes, because those features become relatively weaker as the character gains bonuses to the rate of normal attacks (as evaluated here). In addition, I suspect that Cleave (and the Great, Supreme, and Whirlwind variants) would remain underpowered even after that buff, so it could be given an additional +25% Doublestrike during the action.

(As a sanity check for if Cleave is good enough, activating Cleave with two monsters in range should never reduce your total damage output to less than you'd have gotten attacking normally)

[Gol]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for GTWF.

[Galacticus]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

What you're still saying is we're going to nerf you.

Change the amount of things goin on in the background and you'll solve the problem.
I remember clearly when you had the marketplace tent event the instances were filled
with dozens of toons and constant spawns...the lag was the worst I've ever experienced in my gaming life.
You're not going to fix anything with what you're doing just nerfing...

A NERF IS A NERF IS A NERF!!!!

[Coldin]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for ITWF.

They could always change the pre-reqs.

But yeah. Assuming they were the same, a pure monk would never have 100% off hand attacks.

[Angelus_dead]

I disagree with several other posters and feel stwf should be and actually should have always been implemented. I am a little concerned on what that would mean from a respec (if 19 dex were required) i.e. I don't feel it would be right to force a bunch of characters to reroll, but if it is just another feat that is required then I am onboard.

Why would you want to nerf Rogues?

[AMDarkwolf]

not to flame, but wouldn't it be a 'less stupid' approach to have the client 'figure' the damage, then upload it as a set value? As it is all the damage is calculated server side, then spat out at all the players, with each 'part' of the damage displayed separately, (Which is why turning off those options WILL reduce the lag, u just do not 'process' it)

Just make clients get damage from each 'proc' gather them up and send it to the server, which sends it back to display to everyone, might not be pretty, but seeing '100 damage' might be better than '5 slash, 15 acid, 30 shock--- etc'

[suitepotato]

This still remains the same as DA. Aside from DA not actually doing anything about lag, even if it had, it would be the same as your car not being able to do the proper highway speed, so you instead merely drive on the secondary roads (side streets) instead of fixing the car. This is the same thing. Instead of fixing the problem of the hardware and its architecture not scaling correctly, reduce what is done with the hardware. This is going well beyond mere optimization of how things get done, to changing WHAT gets done.

You don't quit a job twenty miles away because your car gets a problem and can only reliably make a five mile trip, you get the car fixed. The point is to play the game the way the game is designed, not redesign the game around underperforming architecture.

[Borror0]

Wouldn't this make going TWF better than THF simply because even while you're working on the second weapon, you still have the first to play with.

To a certain extent, it would but the end goal is more important than the progress in most people's. People tend to be more resentful that someone had to grind less for equal benefits or are more powerful than they could ever be. It's not flawless but it's a significant improvement IMO.

[Mister_Peace]

I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies.

Doesn't FB require the Cleave feat?

[Nezichiend]

Cool, I already got a seal and a scroll for the epic SoS. I guess I will TR my awesome twf barbarian, that I love to play (a lot) into a cookie cutter wf pure thf barb. Please, NO.
I am usually cool with big updates (I have never complained about DA unless someone was being dumb). This.... This is something I am getting VERY upset over. Why don't you just make 1 (one, one, ONE) physics check instead of nerfing? Right now you are making 1 check, and 0.15 seconds later, making ANOTHER ONE. Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

[zealous]

Indeed. It's essentially no different than the "tap a button on your keyboard while tapping your attack button to swing twice as fast" bug that was around so long ago.

Ah, but there is a major difference. Tapping the button was dead easy, twitching requires timing and is made more difficult by actually being in combat.

I was originally very sceptical to it but after trying it through a char or two I must say that it's one of the best things in the game, purely on account of making combat more fluent and fun.

Twitching also brings ddo closer to PnP, bear with me...
PnP: Multiple attacks with decreasing attack bonus. Higher damage per round against low ac foes.
DDO: Twitching gives higher number of attacks at the cost of attack bonus, same as PnP. The main benefit is that you can take 5foot steps without suffering loss of attacks.
---
Regarding the change I can kind of digest the changed numbers. 2wf will suffer a slight decreas bringing it close to non-twitch 2h, more notable for classes where 2wf has pronounced advantages. At the same time twitching will loose glancing blows bringing it closer to non-twitch and staying ~proportional to 2wf.
Gut feeling only, will crunch numbers when/if I get the time.

The notable thing for me is that I think I'll go "omg thass so kewl" more from seeing double strikes and getting streaks of off hand procs compared to the relative same same of holding the attack button.

Same tactic as the haste change in first presenting a horrendous version before presenting the real version? =)

[Ebondevil]

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

First of all I should say I don't as yet have a TWF character but I am thinking of having one in the future, I was actually looking forward to building one in Mod 5.

That said, my gut feeling on this is that it's a terrible Idea, from experience with proc based combat in other games it doesn't work well, the randomness is annoying and the way it currently looks to be laid out will leave TWF at lower levels virtually useless if 4 in 5 off hand attacks are guaranteed to miss, new players gut feelings on TWF will be that it's not worth it and are less likely to persue the option. Even with the Two Weapon Fighting feat 60% of the off hand attacks will be automatic misses for no apparent reason.

Not to get into too many mechanical details, but from your post it seems to me that the problems are the collision detection, so rather than doing something drastic, just have the off hand attack piggyback off the mainhand attack for the collision detection, reducing the calculations needed for it drastically.

Having the off hand weapon only having a chance of hitting, followed by the normal attack roll would seem to just add more code crunching in rather than reducing it, which makes it sounds like you're attempting to Nerf TWF rather than fix the lag problem.

As I understand it from what you've said, For each Main Hand attack Followed by an Off Hand attack you get the following:

Current Calculations required:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Collision detection, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Rolls
Up to 8.

Proposed Calculations required:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Proc Check, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Check.
Up to 8.

What I propose:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Check.
Up to 7.

Personally I feel Proc based is bad, and that there's no real need for a second Collision detection check, if the Main Hand is within the collision zone then the off hand should be as well.

However, the speed boosts would become less required since the off hand collision detection is no longer required so the speed boosts previously mentioned could also in theory be removed. But that should really be a separate matter.

[Quijonsith]

First, monks aren't the fastest attackers. Rogues and Fighters both get 30% attack speed boosts which put them WAY ahead of monks much of the time. And while I don't know what a twitching acrobat on haste boost wearing madstones gets for attacks per second with a staff, I know it's really high. Regardless "DPS" lag happens with all barbarians in shroud, this clearly has NOTHING to do with monks OR TWF.

Second, as for optimization, a monk strikes a little over 4 attacks per second typically. The number of floating point operations, even unoptimized and in 3 dimensions to calculate if the two objects are in range for the strike to land can be counted on one hand. With the number of operations of a server being counted in the GFLOPS thinking that cutting down on a few operations per second will have any significant impact is misguided to say the least.

Third, it's not impacting the server the way you think it is. If you've both kited in and meleed in part 2 of ToD you'd know that being any distance away from the melee gives you a dramatically different experience than being on the platform with the melee group. It's not the instance choking. It's not the server choking.

Fourth, why the lag in part 1 of shroud going up the steps to the chests after the final, NW portal is broken? Everyone gets it. Maybe you should look at that instead of jumping on the "DPS lag" that, while a catchy term, is only something that people who don't understand software could believe is a problem.

BTW, fix the zone/character changing memory leak problem that is causing the majority of the game crashes. It's been pointed out to you in the forums for months now. Fix the bloody thing.

I have to agree whole heartedly with oweieie here. I've kited part 2 of ToD on my monk a number of times and every time I do I experience zero, that's right ZERO, lag, but every time I'm in melee in the same part there's huge lag and it's worse the more dps we have, especially with more barbarians. It has nothing to do with TWF or monks.

[Alintalkin]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for ITWF.

If they are keeping it as they said they would it would be as posted here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...52#post1448752 which states that the Bab requirement would be 15, though I still agree on the overall unfairness of the idea of STWF with 1/2 Bab classes and 19 dex

Edit: My apologies, realized that 3/4 BAB classes won't have a feat at a lvl when they have 15 Bab and therefore be unable to get it scratch that. This is all bad news with STWF.

[maddmatt70]

Why would you want to nerf Rogues?

Oh they can improve the rogue pres to the FB and Kensai quality level nothing is stopping them from doing so. Quite honestly the assasin pre even with 3d6 more SA damage is substandard in DDO and the mechanic and acrobat are both shoddy. In pnp a rogue can only get to bab 15 by staying pure and hence miss that last attack which stwf would account for.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Okay.
I don't see the point in changing form the current function to the percentages, in reagrds to TWF.

Alacrity and Physics checks I'm already agreed upon. But why change to percentages?

[Daehawk]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

I think this table is fine. If you want every MH = Every OH get STWF. If you're fine with just 80% or a feat starved class get just GTWF like you normally have been and you'll be fine.

This would also give the Monks the double strike that they are wanting right now. Tempest would get a 5%, Monks/Fighters/Paladins getting 10% double strike.

[Brennie]

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

More problems:

Currently a level 20 tempest ranger has +10% attack speed and +1 extra offhand a attack, while a level 20 fighter has just a +10% extra attack speed. So a 20 ranger should, in theory, be one-offhand-attack's worth better at TWF than a 20 fighter.

Level 20 Fighter with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF = 10% double strike/100% offhand proc

Level 20 Ranger with Tempest III = 5% double strike/100% offhand proc.

As you can see, the fighter is a BETTER TWF than the ranger! This, i think, is a problem

Other comparisons -

20 Ranger Arcane Archer with STWF (1 feat investment, easily attainble with archer dex high enough to meet preq) = 0% double strike/100% offhand (Only 5% double strike behind a tempest ranger, losing only sheild bonus and to hit bonus, which not many people care about in late game anyway... but with pretty spectacular archer abilities to back them up, and no wasting 4 feats to get tempest III)

20 Rogue (Or other 3/4 BaB class) with TWF, ITWF, GTWF = 0% double strike/80% offhand proc (Fighters and rogues used to have the same offhand attack amount, fighters can now get potentially 20% more)

EDIT - Suggestion: Abandon STWF. Let all non-ranger tempests cap their offhand proc rate at 80%. This will bring fighters back in line with rogues, will seperate Arcane Archers melee from Tempest Melee, and will make Tempest the best Two Weapon Fighters again.