Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Aspenor]

[Krell]

I'm all for reducing lag although I will say as much as some complain about it on the forums, I don't see it much myself. At worst I don't see people swinging at Harry but we still beat him down, get our heals, and finish the quest. If making some physics changes helps, I'm all for it.

The problem I see is trying to roll a play style balance into this change at the same time. I'm sure the proposed physics changes could be rolled in with numbers that on average would maintain the current play style balance.

As you have seen from other unrelated threads, players get most upset when they feel their time has been wasted, and the level of dissatisfaction is usually directly proportional to the amount of time they feel has been wasted.

The desire to make TWF and THF roughly equal seems flawed considering the larger investment required. I'll quote a previous post below for details. To draw the connection to wasted time, consider what the average player with one or more TWF characters is thinking.

- I could have made a THF character instead and only had to farm shroud for one tier 3 weapon instead of two. My considerable shroud farming time has been wasted.

- I could have made a TWF character with more strength because of no TWF pre-reqs, better to hit because of no off hand penalty, more inventory, and more feats to play with. My time leveling and equiping my TWF characters feels wasted.

Personally, the increased number of magical item slots as a TWF benefit doesn't mean much to me or people I regularly play with. I created TWF characters for the highest DPS and would like to think the considerable investment in time was worth the results compared to other classes. If I could have achieved the same results in half the time, I would feel like my time was wasted.

I have many other characters for non-dps purposes so I'm not saying that DPS is all that matters. My point is that if players feel they could have achieved the same results with THF with much less of an investment than TWF as a result of these changes, they will feel a considerable amount of their time has been wasted.

A lot of game mechanics with Feats, Enhancements, and Equipment is based on the idea that a bigger investment results in a higher value. With these changes I don't believe there is a substantial enough value in TWF over THF considering the investment required. Factor in the number of players that have invested in TWF characters and you have a lot of people unhappy over what they perceive as wasted time.

I suggest factoring the human nature into this change because perception is reality.


Quote:
Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

[Brennie]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

But this does not prevent a Tempest II ranger from taking the STWF feat for exactly 0% additional benefit. Unless Tempest II locks out access to the STWF feat.

[Ethias]

Would it be possible to roll STWF into the other TWF feats instead?

[krud]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent. Nor will these changes have a big impact on that.

But most "twitch" based fighting styles have some kind of basis in the rules, e.g. shot on the run, spring attack, flanking enhancements, etc. THF twitch on the other hand is simply taking advantage of some animation quirks to get more attacks. Not much different than the hop, skip, and jump bug that was in game long ago, imo.

[Boromirs]

For those of you saying the original numbers were bonkers way too severe (which they were) I think this was a under-promise, listen/compromise, bring out ACTUAL proposal type of deal. Im pretty sure their PRIMARY intention was to nerf TWF (and to a lesser extent THF through twitching) secondary might be lag mitigation (but for only 3 quests???)

So, the numbers we are seeing now are the actual numbers the devs hashed out to deal with TWF. I really don't care as long as THF gets nerf'd alongside (ESPECIALLY eSoS ...YOU MUST NERF THAT WEAPON). ... and boost S&B please they need a ton of love.

[testing1234]

got a small idea not sure if its "great" but its extremely targeted against the few instances were you have dps lagg shroud and tod.

very simple give the bosses in tod/shroud either teleport or short time invisibility/incorporeal at even intervals. hardly a ideal solution but it adress only the very few raids were you have dps lagg.
if boss is invisible or 100% incorporeal he could still be attacking while immune to all melee damage.

if the trouble is only on the mad high hp raid bosses we see the dps lagg why not nerf or boost them instead of players? i doubt the raid bosses will complain as much

[Aspenor]

For those of you saying the original numbers were bonkers way too severe (which they were) I think this was a under-promise, listen/compromise, bring out ACTUAL proposal type of deal. Im pretty sure their PRIMARY intention was to nerf TWF (and to a lesser extent THF through twitching) secondary might be lag mitigation (but for only 3 quests???)

So, the numbers we are seeing now are the actual numbers the devs hashed out to deal with TWF. I really don't care as long as THF gets nerf'd alongside (ESPECIALLY eSoS ...YOU MUST NERF THAT WEAPON). ... and boost S&B please they need a ton of love.

I must respectfully disagree on the "nerf ESOS" sentiment.

[Visty]

got a small idea not sure if its "great" but its extremely targeted against the few instances were you have dps lagg shroud and tod.

very simple give the bosses in tod/shroud either teleport or short time invisibility/incorporeal at even intervals. hardly a ideal solution but it adress only the very few raids were you have dps lagg.
if boss is invisible or 100% incorporeal he could still be attacking while immune to all melee damage.

if the trouble is only on the mad high hp raid bosses we see the dps lagg why not nerf or boost them instead of players? i doubt the raid bosses will complain as much

this would kill the raids for those which dont have the dps to cause dps lag

[Angelus_dead]

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used.

All it takes is a little common sense. Simply imagine you were a developer suggesting adding the effect to the game mechanics, and try to make it to the end of the sentence with a straight face.

[Borror0]

If we are using today's costs, I'd rather see a decrease in cost of one handers, rather than an increase in cost of 2handers.

It would be much simpler to double the number of ingredients required for two-handers' recipes and also double the drop rate of each ingredients. You would arrive at the same result but it wouldn't require a complete redesign of all recipes.

[Arvess]

I don't really like the concept of this change. I would support piggybacking the offhand physics check on the main hand check. This is a role playing game so abstraction is a given. And the physics check is a behind the scenes calculation.

So considering all the previous information in this thread, what would haste do? If the intent is to slow down the rate of attacks by increasing proc rates of another (off-hand) attack, is the 5% extra that alacrity, zeal and windstance really breaking the system? Who doesn't beat on the red dude without haste pretty much the entire time? What would the end effect be? You get a few less offhand attacks because the offhand has been randomized to include a 25% reduction and a few people lose their 5-7% stacking attack speed?

It took me a few tries to get into DDO. One thing I liked about this game was the combat system. It seemed real and immediate without being overly realistic. If, in real life, I pick up a single weapon, I have a good measure of control on that weapon. When I put something in my offhand, I don't have the same power and accuracy. The game mechanics makes sense to me in this way. If I invest time to train a skill like fighting with both hands, I expect the efficiency and prowess of the attack to get better. I don't expect to randomly proc extra attacks. Especially in my main hand.

Dungeons and Dragons is first and foremost a role playing game. Good role playing is about telling stories. Every character goes from newborn weakling to something else. Sometimes its uberness and sometimes its a gimpy dead end. But each attribute, each skill, each feat tells the story of how that character grew. It reflects the choices that were made. Did she become more dexterous at the cost of tremendous strength? The original feats were built from this concept of developing character which is why a lot of them are rarely picked. To switch feats from character development to a game mechanic fix is a move in the opposite direction.

[Aspenor]

All it takes is a little common sense. Simply imagine you were a developer suggesting adding the effect to the game mechanics, and try to make it to the end of the sentence with a straight face.

Indeed. It's essentially no different than the "tap a button on your keyboard while tapping your attack button to swing twice as fast" bug that was around so long ago.

[maddmatt70]

I disagree with several other posters and feel stwf should be and actually should have always been implemented. I am a little concerned on what that would mean from a respec (if 19 dex were required) i.e. I don't feel it would be right to force a bunch of characters to reroll, but if it is just another feat that is required then I am onboard. Fighters and rangers historically are the twf characters in ddo and this feat benefits those classes. A rogue has the detriment of less attacks which is accurate with the way pnp works.

I find this alternative suggestion by Eladrin strange in that I am not sure how this helps lag or at least helps the lag very much at all which was a part of the rationale put forth for this change originally. A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.

[R0cksteady]

I'm REALLY hoping STWF will only require 17 dex.

[Cashiry]

I find this alternative suggestion by Eladrin strange in that I am not sure how this helps lag or at least helps the lag very much at all which was a part of the rationale put forth for this change originally. A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.

I was thinking the same thing... If this is in fact a way to improve lag? why is the option there for 100% proc..

If this is in fact a way to lower TWF DPS in disquise of fixing DPS lag, I would say just come out and say we want to NERF TWF.

Don't make the same mistake you did with Dungeon Alert, I get more Lag from DA then I do from anything else. More spells/procs occuring from DA Lags the system.
and no, I don't zerg.

[jcdy10101010]

why not just use the proper equipment to handle the dps lag issues. with my twf builds i have a wepon in my off hand cause i want it to proc as well as my with my main.

[Ethias]

It would be much simpler to double the number of ingredients required for two-handers' recipes and also double the drop rate of each ingredients. You would arrive at the same result but it wouldn't require a complete redesign of all recipes.

Doubling ingredients would accomplish the same thing, you're right. I missed that in your post; my apologies. That would be an easier solution, yeah.

I would also like to echo that changing the way respecs work in this game would make this change, and any other, much easier to swallow.

[kruggar]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

but why spend 3 feats to go tempest igf u can spend one and have almost the same benefits ?

[Borror0]

A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.

"Some things are very light, performance-wise. 'Chance to proc' is one of the lightest calculations available. Actually, even those chance to proc checks are improvements, since it's no longer checking your feats constantly, but instead looking at a cached value."

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...67#post2990567