Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Alintalkin]

Out of curiosity anyone know what the bab requirement for STWF is? If it is over 15 that would be a bad thing as then monks and rogues couldn't get it when they are two classes that largely benefit from TWF (HW being best DPS for monks and rogues hitting sneak attacks)

[Batman78]

to all those advocating static damage, Eladrin has already stated that the rolls for the actual damage are not the issue. The randomizer for rolls is not very load intensive where as the collision test is, so reducing the thing that puts no load on the processor doesn't solve anything. Also I reiterate I seriously doubt they are against putting in new servers and getting new toys to play with, but its not their call, developers do what they are told.

[Shade]

The correlation is that it was not an intended play style. I play a high end barbarian, and understand what it is versus regular attack animation. I have also seen the numbers crunched in your threads.

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent. Nor will these changes have a big impact on that.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

All I'm reaidng here is people that really don't like the way I play the game want my game to be nerfed because they play the game differently then me (and it's not happening here, no matter how hard you scream). Discrimination at it's finest. I could care less of what you think of my play style and I don't think this is even a proper topic to discuss it. I certainly won't make any remakrs about yours.

[Galacticus]

Call me crazy, but I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations, several of them.

Isn't this just going to make it worse?

Remember, I'm no coder so I don't fully know the implications, but it just doesn't feel like it's going to fix anything, to me. It also will reduce twf damage across the board, while simultaneously not fixing the problem.

Feel free to explain to me why I'm wrong, if I am.

/signed

+1 rep

[Dylos_Moon]

Out of curiosity anyone know what the bab requirement for STWF is? If it is over 15 that would be a bad thing as then monks and rogues couldn't get it when they are two classes that largely benefit from TWF (HW being best DPS for monks and rogues hitting sneak attacks)

It is 15, but Rogues and Monks still cant take it.

The last feat a pure rogue or pure monk gets is at BAB 13 (if your last level is fighter, you can get STWF)
Btw, new numbers look much better, 80% for 3 feats seems a lot better then 55% especially for those of us who are not fighters, rangers, or monks.

[Coldin]

Forgot to give feedback!

I like these new numbers a bit better. I suppose TWF is still getting a small nerf since players simply won't attack as fast under this system.

Windstance IV monks are still a bit behind where they once were, but it does seem better that they get the bonus to main hand attacks rather than off-hands.

[zed1]

fighter capstone and zeal applys to all styles, only tempest 3 needs 2 weapons

Gotcha. I started writing my post before Eladrin's latest numbers.

[Dark_Helmet]

I think that the grind pint is an important one that has not been brought up often enough. It's not healthy for a game to have a fighting style that is better simply because it requires more grinding. However, it's equally not healthy to have a fighting style that is as good as the others but requires twice more grinding.

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

Sorry, but I find it too complex having to grind more to be able to craft a larger weapon than a smaller. So a dagger should be 1/4 the cost of a greatsword? Should halflings grind 1/2 the amount for armor?

I think re-grinding to change your existing equipment is an important point, but don't change the existing crafting based on size of weapons or how you would wield them.

[gott_ist_tot]

It seems we have evolved an interesting sub-thread comparing TWF and THF and ways to make these balanced in respect to each other. Something many feel, it seems, should be done.

Let me say one thing. Balancing THF and TWF is a matter so important we should not have this done as a side effect of 'fixing lag'. As the 'lag' fixing will be a main concern here, and the resulting twf/thf rebalancing deserves a fix on its own. Which may not be possible in the future, as this may break 'the fix' it'll be reliant on!

[Chai]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

Im not qualified? LOL

I am as qualified as you are.

And I still believe you can clearly see why they are nerfing it. Maybe you dont agree with it, but you can clearly see it.

The devs dont disagree with it, they just weighed the point you made about the intended AOE damage against the unintended playstyle of twitching and made a decision. Its a decision you and many others disagree with, but its a decision nonetheless.

[Cyr]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

Translated does this mean that tempest 2 does not stack with STWF. This is an important question, because it means no double strikes on the off hand hook. It also means that Tempest 1-2 splashes will not really grant any benefit to TWF speed which is a very major change from before.

In other words, normal = 20% and +20% per TWF feat and with STWF you have 100%....

[Alintalkin]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used. Movement is a key advantage in THF that is almost a reason to take it in and of itself. Twitch fighting, simply put, I see as a trade off, faster attack for less of an attack bonus. It had it own bit of fairness, and it usually falls apart in lag situations.


Edit: Oh and on the subject of STWF: I prefer it to be implemented then not, better to have a option then no option at all.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm on board with the static damage change instead. Wouldn't effect overall DPS, and would reduce the lag. Just give us the average of current damage output. Anything 1d6 would do 3.5 average damage. Just round I guess, up or down I'm sure wouldn't make a big difference compared to the change this topic is about. Should reduce lag quite a bit, without unbalancing classes.

And so would end any claim that this game had anything to do with D&D.

[Galacticus]

Instead of trying to fix the lag with something that doesnt' cause it how about reducing the size of the raid party to 10 from 12 and adjusting the mobs HP to compensate. Or does the dungeon scaling system do that already. In a smaller
raid party, which I have part of there is minimal to no lag and we've been able
to complete the raid even if we had 6 in group without any difficulty.

Reduce the amount of dungeon AOEs and spawns. There's alot going on in the
background in TOD for instance that adds to the lag besides TWFs. Ex. 15
shadowfiends chasing or caster around.

But to do this without giving the paying customer compensation for all
the invested time and effort ex. like deconstruction, will be cruel and will turn
off alot of players, myself included.

[Brennie]

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

My question is - What happens to a Tempest II or III ranger who takes STWF? 120% chance to proc offhand weapon? Does STWF constitute a completely wasted feat on a ranger then (or does 120% offhand proc give some kind of benefit?)

In my estimation, any player unfamiliar with the new system might take STWF simply because it is a two-weapon fighting feat, which intuitively would mean it makes two weapon fighting character better! And on a ranger, this seems like it would have even less benefit than say, skill focus: swim

A quick and easy fix is making tempest II give STWF feat for free *instead* of 10% offhand proc bonus (Effectively giving the same benefit under a different name to prevent weird stacking). Whether this would cause problems giving level 12 rangers a feat that only level 16 full BaB characters can get is debatable.

EDIT: Except that STWF gives 20% and Tempest 2 gives 10%... So a Tempest II would end up with 110% proc chance >_> but if everythign over 100% doesn't matter anyway (Effectively a 100% cap) then it will still be a net gain of 10%

Also, i do petition to leave STWF out of it. It will put TWF Bards and Rogues and FvS and possibly, but probably not, monks much farther behind full BaB TWFers.

[Chai]

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used. Movement is a key advantage in THF that is almost a reason to take it in and of itself. Twitch fighting, simply put, I see as a trade off, faster attack for less of an attack bonus. It had it own bit of fairness, and it usually falls apart in lag situations.

While I understand what you are saying, I think the Devs ACTIONS are speaking louder than WORDS when voicing their stances on issues, which is clearly the case here.

[kailiea]

I'll toss out a semi-wacky idea, which would not maintain the existing game balance:
Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity.

There's a lot of interesting implications, blah blah, I won't distract from this thread by elaborating on them all. It could be said that high dexterity is not currently useful enough in melee, and it would be interesting to let characters with very good dex gain the same TWF benefits as the Tempest line gets (maybe with the restriction that it'll only work with finessable weapons, meaning no khopeshes)

I don't post often but this idea I can get behind. I think that a dex based rogue or fighter with a 40+ dex shouldn't miss 45 percent of the time just because they aren't a tempest 3. Our stat choices should actually mean something sorta like they do in PnP, otherwise whats the point of even having them.

[Souless]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

This is another type of nerf......

NERF the muticlass builds.....that is what this is....

the fact that you r defending this nerf means it is comming...... and wasting my time with feedback

have the % increase with the levels of tempest ranger, kensi ftr, whatever.....is just another way to nerf muticlass builds as well....since all of my melee toons (with the exception of monk) are muticlass builds you are impacting my entire game experience.

I have suffered through your nerf's before...and i probabaly will be able to fix this nerf as well...it is just extreemly frustrating to have my builds get nerfed again and again....

guess its time to change all my races to WF pick up an epic sos and stand in line with the other cookie cutter toons and call it a day....

The Bytcher~

[Borror0]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.

Would you mind sharing your reasoning with us, so we can agree or disagree with it?

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

Okay. It was not clear in the table, since you didn't precise it didn't stack.

If you are to add STWF in, Tempest II seems like a good place. Tempest II is quite meh at the moment.

[Ethias]

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

If we are using today's costs, I'd rather see a decrease in cost of one handers, rather than an increase in cost of 2handers.