Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Borror0]

Finally read through it all. Took me an hour and a half, but I've done it.

Okay, now, onto my feedback:
The idea to reduce collision tests and to change most attack bonuses into hooks is a good one. Keep it.

The proposed change also contains an unnecessary but easily justifiable nerf to TWF. Omit it for now. Instead, use values that do not nerf anyone's DPS. While the goal is commendable, changes that try to fix several issues at a time never go well past the players. Grazing hits are a good example of this: it tried to address several issue at once and very few people actually got it, and most posters actually viewed "fixing many things at once" as one of grazing hits flaws.

Even though the nerf in question would probably result into an improvement of game balance, the community's perception of the change matters a lot.

That does not mean you should not nerf TWF into a future update. In fact, you probably should but the key phrase here is "in a future update" - not now. Use this opportunity to buy Turbine some good will credits from the playerbase and announce that "based on feedback" you have decided to modify the values so that the change "would not result in a DPS loss for TWF characters." A lot of veterans believe that Turbine does not listen to them, and here is an opportunity to prove them wrong. Push the nerf to a latter update and let us digest the change to attack rates first. Smaller pills are easier to swallow.

Another positive aspect of separating the nerf from the lag fix is that, in the event the lag fix does not address the lag, you'll have avoided a lot of unnecessary hate. Like JayDubya said earlier in the thread, "if you make these changes, and the DPS lag doesn't go away. Then you get a lot of really angry people."

I get it. You are going to nerf my character into oblivion.
Can I have a free Heart of Wood and Greensteel deconstruction?

Talking about player frustration management, you'll notice that there are a lot of comments like this thorough the thread. This is why many others and I have stressed - and still stress - the importance of easily affordable respec mechanism. DDO's current approach to them is completely backward. Instead of being easily affordable, most of them can only be done by spending real world money.

Allowing players to adapt to changes you make would help in reducing the frustration caused by nerfs. On the other hand, asking them to pay you with their hard earned money for a change that you made will most likely anger them furthermore.

We 2weaponers have to grind twice as much to reach our dps levels, and there should be a significant upside to it, especially considering someone with a 2hander and ZERO feats is about 90% effective in that style, while someone with no feats is about -25% as effective as someone with all 3 feats while using 2 weapons.

I think that the grind pint is an important one that has not been brought up often enough. It's not healthy for a game to have a fighting style that is better simply because it requires more grinding. However, it's equally not healthy to have a fighting style that is as good as the others but requires twice more grinding.

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

[Chai]

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

Arent you like, the champion of "twitching" which is moving slightly in order to increase the attack rate animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter because youre so well geared?

I think you CAN see why.

[R0cksteady]

Wait, does this mean STWF would be a free feat? Just a BAB requirement, or will there be a higher dex requirement?

[Temko]

I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

TWF already has better DPS - at least, i can out DPS any THF against any single mob,and my **** procs more.

edit:

actually

STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%

100/100
105/120

a BOOST in dps?

[eeeeeee]

I think soul tells it best when it comes to making a complicated solution to a simple problem....the sos is not overpowered hes lying it took me 35 ev1 runs to get the seal Die SOUL

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Eladrin - thanks a lot for listening, I need to do some math on the new table but it looks much much better - maybe only a 5-10% nerf to tempest 3 and wind 4 - but a 100% reduction in physics calculations.

Garth

[kruggar]

i have a question.

im fighting against two enemies close to each other and im a twf.

i hit the one im targeted and i got the proc change for off hand attack, but my first attack killed the first enemie.

how do u solve the colision issue to see if im in range for the off hand to hit the second attack?

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

[kamimitsu]

I realize I'm late to the discussion and my comments may get lost in the tide, but I feel the need to put in my 2 copper.

First off, I'm not sure the sky is falling down. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how it plays out, as some randomization might make combat more interesting ::gasp::

However, I do have one small suggestion (forgive me if it has been covered, but I had to skim a very long thread). In any animation that clearly makes two simultaneous attacks (running and attacking with TWF, rogue Stealth attacks, etc.), you might consider guaranteeing off-hand procs. The animation clearly makes two attacks, and these attacks are already at significantly reduced speed. This has the added benefit of ensuring that Assassins can still double assassinate (just like in the movies) without the risk of alerting one of a pair. Attack inconsistency and stealth don't mix well, which makes Shiz a sad monkey.

EDIT: after reading the post above mine, now I'm wondering how the collision detection will react to a successful Assassinate. Will any remaining attacks just be lost? If so, then please consider leaving 2 detection checks for simultaneous attack animations.

[Khelden]

TWF already has better DPS - at least, i can out DPS any THF against any single mob,and my **** procs more.

Huh, you did not read my other posts? I keep saying TWF is unbalanced compared to THF, it is way stronger at the moment lol.

[zed1]

With these proposed changes, does the fighter capstone only provide a 10% chance to double strike when TWF? (It is hard to tell from the original post.) If so, that is a major nerf to all pure fighters regardless of fighting style. The benefit to TWF is minimal, and the current benefit to THF has been removed.

I'm all for reducing lag, but this re-balancing effort goes too far IMHO. Most of my characters will need to be tossed, TRed, or the concepts reworked. The whole thing is more than a little depressing. If the plan was to reduce lag by keeping players from wanting to log in and play: this change = epic win.

Edit:
Latest numbers by Eladrin seem much more balanced. Also, as Visty confirms, THF-style still gets double strike chance so no real change to the capstone. In other news: sky does not fall.

[Wurmwood]

So from my understanding, if you were to have a Greater two weapon fighting ranger and he rolled to hit (+15 or whatever) and the server says "ok, that's a hit" there will be an 80% chance that that "hit" does double damage? or does it roll again for the 2nd hits damage which is an automatic hit. And all the while your toon will still be doing the twf weapon animation correct? If that's the case, he has to finish the animation to do another attack right? Will that not slow things down? And basically require people to drink haste pots like they had a mouth full of salt?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

yes - I think in the case where the main hand kills the mob, because a second physics calculation is not being carried out on the second mob, the off hand attack is lost in this case. Only really an issue for when you are attacking several low hitpoint mobs.

Bumping this (it was mentioned once earlier in the thread too) in case Eladrin missed this while reading the other 800 posts.

Garth

[le_goat]

Maybe, instead of slowing twf for everyone, you could slow the the raid boss encounters matrix style,just the ones with lag.

[Naash]

Eladrin,
Like the amended proposal much better but at least think about breaking Alacrity up into a progression for Kensai I,II & III.

[Siskel]

i have a question.

im fighting against two enemies close to each other and im a twf.

i hit the one im targeted and i got the proc change for off hand attack, but my first attack killed the first enemie.

how do u solve the colision issue to see if im in range for the off hand to hit the second attack?

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

I asked the same question earlier and have not seen a response.

[vVAnjilaVv]

So once again the vicious circle begins.....one playstyle is being nerfed because another feels that their play style is weak in comparison.

Quests will now take longer to complete because TWF won't be as effective....but the THF can walk away bragging that thier kill count is higher than it used to be.

/facepalm

About the lag issue, seriously, DA didn't help much at all.....I am no coding or game development expert here....but with all the increased revenue you guys are seeing can't you just upgrade your systems and call this latest "lag fix" what it really is......

controlling the playstyles of this game.

I finally get my pure monk to level 20 and just love how fun it is to play only to be told that in short time my monk will be doing less DPS.......

I have an idea!!!!...leave TWF alone....upgrade your hardware and give THF a boost somewhere.....while your at it, drop DA as well.

[Ethias]

Please don't bring back STWF. This would penalize classes which are very short on feats, especially DW melee clerics/FvS, which already need to splash fighter levels to have even some metamagic with all the twf required.

[Temko]

Huh, you did not read my other posts? I keep saying TWF is unbalanced compared to THF, it is way stronger at the moment lol.

30 pages of thread. brain not contain it all :P

but, i belive that a lot of th TWF will get a healty nerf to lower numbers wile te ACTUAL TWF classes get that boost (Rangers ffs!)

[Visty]

With these proposed changes, does the fighter capstone only provide a 10% chance to double strike when TWF? (It is hard to tell from the original post.) If so, that is a major nerf to all pure fighters regardless of fighting style. The benefit to TWF is minimal, and the current benefit to THF has been removed.

I'm all for reducing lag, but this re-balancing effort goes too far IMHO. Most of my characters will need to be tossed, TRed, or the concepts reworked. The whole thing is more than a little depressing. If the plan was to reduce lag by keeping players from wanting to log in and play: this change = epic win.

fighter capstone and zeal applys to all styles, only tempest 3 needs 2 weapons

[Towrn]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

These numbers look a great deal better than the first ones I saw.

Still would like to test it, because if it has 0 effect on dps lag, then there really isn't much point, now is there?