Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Alintalkin]

Though I haven't read all of this (went to about page 7 or 8 then switched to page 27 then 28). I beg of you not to do this. THF will become, and I repeat, the way to go. Instead of seeing dual Kopesh users you will see groups with only Great axe/falcon/SoS users. DPS lag doesn't all the time when there is high DPS, or groups with many monks or TWFers. That alone suggests that DPS lag is not just from DPS or from TWFers. There is another underlying problem to it. Also a simply increase in server performance could be gained by this simple thing: upgrading the servers. It might cost more but it will allow you to do more with the servers in the future which will in the end affect the game. Also this seems to hit monks rather harshly as most of the DPS from monks was from attack speed and Air stance insight bonus was much more crucial to that then the enchantment bonus, which could be easily be gained via haste. Also monks don't get speed boosts like fighters and rogues do so the class that was all about speed will be hit in the face even more then before. Not a good thing to do. Especially when the monk class is one of the hardest to get decent dps in.

Now enough about monks there is another issue. TwFers do currently more DPS then most (barb not included) THF. However this is good as they have to have both a high Dex and strength to use Twf effectively. As it will be under this method, there would literally be no point to go TWF, except for monks of course, whose only dps option is HW
(dang thought I was going to keep monks out of this). THF barbarians will rule this game, as if they don't already. It is just not fair to many classes. Also it is a real kick in the pants to 90% of the melee builds in the game. Even giving every two weapon fighting melee in the game a LR if would not stop the major backlash of doing this. Some people say that builds will become more diversified. Face the truth honestly. The diversity will be decreased. Many TWF's would reroll, or respec to THF (or leave, which is very possible). It will simply become a majority of THF's instead. Also many multi-class builds would be trashed. Rogue would be no longer as good DPS. Monk would be made fun of even more then they are now (and you have to get them in the store for heaven sake!).Bad move turbine bad move.

If you had this method at the start there would not even be half the grumbling of now (though I would still digress the unfairness of equality between TWF and THF (wow unfairness within equality that is a first)). To take the most used combat method in the game and hit it with a nerf bat of this size is to literally lose many, many customers, as why should they be punished for centering their build around something that stayed unchanged for so long only to be slapped in the face and be forced to actually buy a respec if they want to change their build according to the change?

Please do not do this. If not for TWFers for the sake of the best MMO I have played, DDO.

[xTethx]

Might as well post an idea since this isnt gettin changed.

Tempest 1 - 3% double strike, 10% chance to proc off hand
Tempest 2 - 6% double strike, additional 10% to proc off hand
Tempest 3- 10% double strike, another addtional 10% to proc off hand bringin total to 30%

Kensai 1 - 3% double strike (only with signature weapon), 10% chance to proc off hand
Kensai 2 - 6% double strike (same as above), additional 5% chance to proc off hand
Kensai 3 - 10% double strike (as above), additional 5% to proc off hand bringin total to 20%

Air Stance 1 - 2% double strike, 5% chance to proc off hand
Air Stance 2 - 4% double strike, additional 5% to proc off hand
Air Stance 3 - 7% double strike, additional 5% to proc off hand
Air Stance 4 - 10% double strike, addtional 5% to proc off hand bringin total to 20%

Zeal - 10% double strike, 10% chance to proc off hand weapon

Fighter Capstone: provides 5% double strike (might need tweeking post suggestion)

Assuming all classes have all 3 TWF feats and abov enhancements/capstone

20 Ranger - 10% double strike, 85% chance to proc off hand
20 Fighter - 15% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand
20 Monk - 10% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand
20 Paladin - 10% double strike, 65% chance to proc off hand
Monster (uncentered) - 9% double strike, 80% chance to proc off hand
14 Pally/6 Monk (centered) - 14% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand

[Tarnoc]

in pnp the tohit penalty actually matters
with thf you thus get +4 more dmg per hit (pa+2, double that for twohanded)
also finding one uber weapon is easier then 2 uber weapons
also thf weapons have higher base damage

rogues are good with twf as the more hits you get, the more sneaks you do

other classes just lack the bonus damage which would make it better then thf

oh, and it costs 3 feats

always trying to bring it back to pnp....then weres my +5 defender that i can choose tohit bonus or ac bonus?

weres my ac that matters....weres the mobs having real hit points and stats....weres barbs only the uberist haveng 25 str at top.....weres 18/00 str weres many things...

i SAY THIS Todo WERE NOT IN PNP ANYMORE

[grodon9999]

Wow, I'd much rather ToD when it's a Barb/DPS on main rather than Intimi, while intimi on Suulo seems eaiser simply due to the ease of healing without worrying about constant curses.... Do it both ways... DPS main tank is much faster and more reliable on Horoth...

Not all barbs are created equal . . .

[MrWizard]

It's one of the reasons we're talking about this now. There are major impacts to it.


When it hits Lamannia, we'll be watching things. I can probably be convinced to experiment with making TWF, ITWF, and GTWF all grant a 15% bonus if things go well.

well, the issue I see is, if you do not have all the feats you will not get too many off hand attacks...

and quite frankly, it is odd to be dual wielding and not actually use the second weapon. Especially if that second weapon is something you want to proc with...like a destruction weapon.


also, OTWF should add more too, if using two large weapons.

also, there should be a minus for using a large weapon offhand without otwf...or a bonus if using a light weapon.


It just seems, that unless you are fully specced, it would be better to just not go TWF at all. And if you multi your last two levels of fighter, might be wise to not go that route either.

Interesting to see how it works.




Will the dual wielding mobs also have this? The epic dude I played with was doing 2 hits with every swing he made...and if this is how it would work, I am all for it.

The guy did 10 attacks with basically 3 animations..it was impressive, I want that.

[SquelchHU]

If 18/1/1's were so much more survivable... then why are there so many WF THF barbarians that are the main tanks in TOD, VOD, etc?

VoD: Anti healing curse. Does not affect repair spells. Getting any WF FB is easier than getting someone with 72+ AC for Normal (more for higher settings) that still DPSs enough to hold aggro. Remember, 18/1/1s are mid tier DPS without the nerf. Enough to matter, not more than Kensai and FBs and such.

ToD: Only HP matters really. WF Barbs naturally have very high HP. 18/1/1s have significantly less HP. You need at least 500 just to survive a 1 vs disintegrate, and considering he also DoTs you and melees you very fast 600+ is a safer bare minimum. Can you get 600+ on an 18/1/1? Yeah, barely. And it'd be a pain to do, because madstone boots happen to share the same spot as boots of anchoring.

[Visty]

always trying to bring it back to pnp....then weres my +5 defender that i can choose tohit bonus or ac bonus?

weres my ac that matters....weres the mobs having real hit points and stats....weres barbs only the uberist haveng 25 str at top.....weres 18/00 str weres many things...

i SAY THIS Todo WERE NOT IN PNP ANYMORE

rofl, at least read what my post replied to

it was a reply over pnp, so ill neg rep your post there now because you failed really hard at reading

[Rav'n]

what Would Jeets Do?

Rofl!!!!! +1!!!

[Seikojin]

...Snip...

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

I think the off hand procs for pure classes pallys and fighters should be closer to monk, like 60 or 65%... Like pally 60, fighter 65%...

Min maxing the other ways wouldnt really push them to 100% on off hand procs, which seems the idea with this change.

I did some quick progrmatical processing in my head and I can see why something needs to be done. LOL The tables generated to handle combat resolution (applying damage) for each target are huge.

From what I am thinking programatically, crits may be a weak spot to address. When it comes to any combat in the game, crits are the big thing people aim for.

I don't know how they are done, but is it a simple solution, like Damage x 2 (for a x2 weapon), or is the values for everything done again to offer more variance in the end result? If it is the latter, I suggest doing the former. If it is the former, then I am out. LOL

[parvo]

Meh...who cares. You could cut character attack speed in half and we'd still be overpowered for most of the content.

[Boromirs]

Im actually beginning to think this is a direct result of WB buying out Turbine.

WB Exec: Yeh...umm, we need our 3rd quarter numbers to be a bit higher. What can you do to get people to buy some more from the DDO store?

(Turbine exec and WB exec look at the programmers)

Programmer: The game is fine, why are you guys looking at me??

Turbine exec: Couldn't you um, like "stir things up" a little? You know get them to start over or something...

Programmer: Dude ! That is WRONG! These people have worked deligently over months and years to get their characters to where they are and now you want to just swipe it all away with the snap of a finger!

WB Exec: Well... I guess theres two ways to increase these profits. Either get more revenue or... you know save on cost, wonder where the biggest costs come from...hrmm..

Programmer: <gulp> I'll get working on it right away sir.





Sorry for all the pessimisim

[Aesop]

How to you know this tech info so well? You mentioned "rapid succession" . Is that speed dependent?

Its in one of Eladrin's posts.


It goes Main Hand Collision Detection (which apparently is complicated) Main Hand Attack
then .15 Sec later Off hand Collision Detection (also Complicated) Off Hand Attack

the fix that he is proposing is Main Hand Collision Detection main Hand Attack
Assumed Off Hand Collision (if Main Hand Detection was positive) percent chance of off Hand Attack.


He has also said this will NOT fix all the lag, but it will help.

Now we're really just haggling over percentages and offering up balance suggestions.


Aesop

[Khurse]

And in those cases healing is done by mass cures, so the fact one person needs less healing is quite irrelevant. Been there, done that. Loose maybe 10 HP a second when mass cures are being thrown for 100+ = I could easily take a lot more damage and still be just fine.

That makes it useful for... soloing. And that's about it.

Or for normal runs, where healer lags, where healer gets tripped by something, some raid parts.
I'd agree if all you ever do is raid and run epic, probably not that big a deal.
For all those that don't just raid and run epic, kinda handy.

[SquelchHU]

i think of all the classes, Rangers have the least amount of right to whine about TwF line is very costly
after all, they got the full line for free while bypassing the requirements as well as the full set of Archery feats

BLEH~

Except that instead of setting three feats on fire for TWF, ITWF, and GTWF you set... 4 on fire for Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Oversized TWF.

So no, Rangers do not come out ahead in feats. At least not if they want the only worthwhile Ranger PRC they don't.

And archery is at best useful 20 seconds/120 seconds, so no one really cares.

[bobbryan2]

VoD: Anti healing curse. Does not affect repair spells. Getting any WF FB is easier than getting someone with 72+ AC for Normal (more for higher settings) that still DPSs enough to hold aggro. Remember, 18/1/1s are mid tier DPS without the nerf. Enough to matter, not more than Kensai and FBs and such.

ToD: Only HP matters really. WF Barbs naturally have very high HP. 18/1/1s have significantly less HP. You need at least 500 just to survive a 1 vs disintegrate, and considering he also DoTs you and melees you very fast 600+ is a safer bare minimum. Can you get 600+ on an 18/1/1? Yeah, barely. And it'd be a pain to do, because madstone boots happen to share the same spot as boots of anchoring.

Right... so those 18/1/1s aren't as survivable.

That was my point. People like to point out this mythical "balance" between survivability and DPS. That 18/1/1s are more survivable and barbs do more DPS... but when it matters most, at end game raids, barbs are more survivable as well.

[IronClan]

With the addition of FB pre and the introduction of the ESoS I think THF has been brought back up to par with twf. If DPS is reduced for twf with this proposed fix im not for it, unless another way can be introduced to boost twf dps.

Wow yeah THF is good because of FB and Epic SoS... and I guess you left out WF Bladesworn... So you're saying that THF is relevant because of some Barbs and the tiny percentage of players who will even try to grind for an Epic SoS?

[Rabscuttle]

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Eladrin, could you please elaborate on this change? Specifically, in regards to twitch attacking with THF.

Also - thanks for the continuing feedback in this thread.

[smatt]

Wait for it wait for it....


DOOoOOooOOOoOOooooOoM!

Hasn't been said yet......... Just thought I'd add it to the mess in here

[NoobGoneWild]

I didn't quite go thru all the threads, but i'd have to agree with the general sentiment that in all likelihood, this will not fix the lag issue by any noticeable amount...

I've run shrouds with all barb 2hf dps and it still lags horribly... suggesting to players that eliminating twf physical checks will fix the lag is proposterous...

Though i don't have any twf build toons personally, this suggestion causes me to fear the endless cycle of nerfing that is all too common in asian mmo games (hence why i don't play them anymore). Something gets nerfed, creates an imbalance, more things get nerfed, rinse, repeat, and watch players leave... I'd say turbine is treading on dangerous waters by making siginificant changes to the D&D rule set... after enough changes, the game wouldn't be D&D anymore, and would just become another mmo...

I would sincerely suggest that ddo/turbine perhaps consult with WoTC for suggestions rather than do whatever changes happen to fit their hardware capacity.

[bobbryan2]

Might as well post an idea since this isnt gettin changed.

Tempest 1 - 3% double strike, 10% chance to proc off hand
Tempest 2 - 6% double strike, additional 10% to proc off hand
Tempest 3- 10% double strike, another addtional 10% to proc off hand bringin total to 30%

Kensai 1 - 3% double strike (only with signature weapon), 10% chance to proc off hand
Kensai 2 - 6% double strike (same as above), additional 5% chance to proc off hand
Kensai 3 - 10% double strike (as above), additional 5% to proc off hand bringin total to 20%

Air Stance 1 - 2% double strike, 5% chance to proc off hand
Air Stance 2 - 4% double strike, additional 5% to proc off hand
Air Stance 3 - 7% double strike, additional 5% to proc off hand
Air Stance 4 - 10% double strike, addtional 5% to proc off hand bringin total to 20%

Zeal - 10% double strike, 10% chance to proc off hand weapon

Fighter Capstone: provides 5% double strike (might need tweeking post suggestion)

Assuming all classes have all 3 TWF feats and abov enhancements/capstone

20 Ranger - 10% double strike, 85% chance to proc off hand
20 Fighter - 15% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand
20 Monk - 10% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand
20 Paladin - 10% double strike, 65% chance to proc off hand
Monster (uncentered) - 9% double strike, 80% chance to proc off hand
14 Pally/6 Monk (centered) - 14% double strike, 75% chance to proc off hand

And the reason I think this is a dangerous road to go down: in a word, rogues. But to a lesser extent, bards, favored souls, clerics, etc.

Too much combat ability is being given through enhancements rather than feats already. Putting all those combat bonuses into class specific enhancements means two things. One that the piddling amount of damage clerics were already doing is being reduced further... and two: That every class would then need a melee PrE... and if every class is going to get one... why even make them in the first place?

I think the best option is giving better benefits to the feats themselves with only small additions to class specific stuff.