Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Psyker]

I'm sure with changes like these you will have plenty of people upset because they will see them as nerfing their builds, however from my perspective changes like these that help to kill the lag are a good thing.

[Wurmwood]

http://www.fusionio.com/load/media-d...ctal-Study.pdf

[DrNuegebauer]

Two things:

1) This is a terrible "solution" - it's not going to stop the DPS lag at all, it'll just slow it down by 20%. But lag is lag, and 20% less lag ain't gonna make anybody happy.
I'm completely confused Eladrin, if you think this is going to stop the lag altogether, please explain how? All you do is reduce some of the 2WF attacks, but unless you remove 90% of them, the lag will remain. Or, if you are suggesting that this new method will get rid of all lag, then why the heck not just do it in a way that maintains the current swing speeds?

2) DPS lag is not all about 2WF. I've experienced signifcant lag on 2HF character too - admittedly it is less often, but it's still there. And there's PLENTY of lag when fighting in a FW (or even just dropping a FW).
The issue really seems to be a serverside process of information - there's just got to be a better coding to process information that doesn't involve "having less information sent". Seems like a ridiculous "solution" that flat out will not work.

[Backley]

I would propose a small exception.

When in sneak mode, there should be a 100% chance of offhand attacks. Additionally, you should keep the collision check for the offhand for attacks made in sneak mode.

These weren't causing DPS lag in the first place, but rather were useful for assassinations and sneak attacks.

This, or always re-collision if the mob died in the previous attack.

[Cyr]

Not to mention gear issues on live servers... I somehow doubt that greensteel deconstruction has been waiting till now.

Nope, GS deconstruction has been waiting for them to figure out a way to sneak it into the ddo store without raising an outcry. Hey I think I have a new conspiracy theory for the reasoning behind this change

[Aesop]

If speed of attacks is a problem, how about this instead.

1. leave speed mechanics exactly how it is now
2. slow down all melee by 20%
3. reduce mob hp by 20% to compensate

A side effect, spell damage will be more effective but meh. This is fair to all builds, twf, thf, monks, ranger splashed, and everything.

Its not actually the speed of combat its the functions that happen behind the scenes. Collision Detection for multiple attacks in rapid succession is a part of it and that's the primary focus of the change. the rest does nerf TWF directly and there is also a slight nerf to THF combat involving Glancing Blows while moving.


Aesop

[Geonis]

There is no arguing with the number of "Welfare THFs" now, that want the same benefit for half the work of TWFs.

We might as well just talk to the wall some more, because this is going in some method to WoW'ify the combat that I have loved for 4.5 years, and that is just fine for Turbine.

I hope WoTC yanks the DnD badge away from you quick as they can, because you are killing my only DnD fix with this change you know is going in despite anything your customers say.

My only regret is dropping $250 in the last 6 or 8 weeks to purchase pretty much everything in addition to 17 char slots and a ton of other consumables.

[Visty]

[Improvements to TWF]

1.) Tandem Attack - You attack with both weapons at the same time at one exact spot once during your attack chain. If your main hand hits your off hand hits as well automatically, if your main hand crits your off hand crits.

scimitar in mainhand for many crits and pick in offhand for huge crits?
doesnt sound right

[Dark_Helmet]

Too much to read (especially with all the junk posts about debunking what lag is).

What I don't see here is the analysis of what is leading to the "DPS" lag:
Is it the amount of load on the server CPUs due to the swing calculations, publishing the calculations, or total calculations per second? As in, is it actually figuring out every single weapon process each swing (e.g. metal type, pure good, 1 point of force, frost, etc.) or the fact that you are having to provide the results out to the user in some manner? The total calc / second could be solved by getting more CPU power so I am throwing it out.
If so, somehow, you need to optimize how it tracks the processes for classes of monsters in the current quest so that when the person equips that weapon, it continues to know what processes apply until they switch targets/weapons instead of calculating for each swing. Somehow, tables can be pre-generated with character weapons and monsters (trading memory for CPU processing). You will still have buff add-on process modifications (fire resist, stoneskin, etc.), but it would be less CPU intensive as you won't have to re-calculate it all each time.



What you seem to be proposing is a nerf to an individual style, when you still have an over-all issue: dps lag.
Also, you are introducing more non-D&D rules to a system that might be better solved with different solutions.

You already did something similar when you nerfed haste, but your nerfs always sacrifice a particular style to solve a problem that is universal in nature, but not universal in solution (hey, we will affect melee speed but not ranged or casting).


Here is something that may be annoying to most people, but might be the "fairest":
Why not stretch out the round? Make everything go slightly slower: slower to swing, slower to cast, slower to move, slower to change weapons. But, don't make one style unfairly slower in ratio to other styles (everything across the board is 15% slower).



Finally, are you finally understanding that something as simple as the "Ice Games" that allow you to put even more processing on every weapon out there was a bad idea?

[Yajerman01]

way to sneak it into the ddo store without raising an outcry.

Hey pay turbine points to deconstruct?

laughable at best - at that point id purchase a 1-way ticket out of here

[MrWizard]

i'm fine with whatever you do...just a game.

but please fix the amrath action boost bug and for the love of god do these two things..


1) add more ac stuff for ac tanks
2) add something in game to alleviate glancing blows, like a feat.


oh, but since you are all 'changey' how about allowing barbarians with ungodly strength (like 70+) to dual wield two handed weapons

[SquelchHU]

Yes, but in everything but Epic the TWF 18/1/1 is usually harder to hit, requires less healing/stays alive longer.

I've got a 20 KOTC Paladin who can out DPS most Barbs/THFs fairly easily (when smite is up and I get lucky die rolls)And I know there are better TWF KOTCs out there.

In comparison, a friend's 18/1/1 does less damage, but is far more survivable.
I don't think you should get utility,(geneally speaking) more survivability, and equal DPS.

And in those cases healing is done by mass cures, so the fact one person needs less healing is quite irrelevant. Been there, done that. Loose maybe 10 HP a second when mass cures are being thrown for 100+ = I could easily take a lot more damage and still be just fine.

That makes it useful for... soloing. And that's about it.

[grodon9999]

If 18/1/1's were so much more survivable... then why are there so many WF THF barbarians that are the main tanks in TOD, VOD, etc?

That's easy, if the 18/1/1 is generating enough damage to maintain the hate needed you're group has such gimped DPS you're fooked anyway

I've tanked Horoth once in my 18/1/1 and though successful it was rough. Our Stalwart Defender friend with a raid-buffed 800 HP does just fine most of the time

[Cyr]

Hey pay turbine points to deconstruct?

laughable at best - at that point id purchase a 1-way ticket out of here

It was meant mostly in jest...mostly.

[Luis_Velderve]

Its not actually the speed of combat its the functions that happen behind the scenes. Collision Detection for multiple attacks in rapid succession is a part of it and that's the primary focus of the change. the rest does nerf TWF directly and there is also a slight nerf to THF combat involving Glancing Blows while moving.


Aesop

How to you know this tech info so well? You mentioned "rapid succession" . Is that speed dependent?

[oweieie]

First, monks aren't the fastest attackers. Rogues and Fighters both get 30% attack speed boosts which put them WAY ahead of monks much of the time. And while I don't know what a twitching acrobat on haste boost wearing madstones gets for attacks per second with a staff, I know it's really high. Regardless "DPS" lag happens with all barbarians in shroud, this clearly has NOTHING to do with monks OR TWF.

Second, as for optimization, a monk strikes a little over 4 attacks per second typically. The number of floating point operations, even unoptimized and in 3 dimensions to calculate if the two objects are in range for the strike to land can be counted on one hand. With the number of operations of a server being counted in the GFLOPS thinking that cutting down on a few operations per second will have any significant impact is misguided to say the least.

Third, it's not impacting the server the way you think it is. If you've both kited in and meleed in part 2 of ToD you'd know that being any distance away from the melee gives you a dramatically different experience than being on the platform with the melee group. It's not the instance choking. It's not the server choking.

Fourth, why the lag in part 1 of shroud going up the steps to the chests after the final, NW portal is broken? Everyone gets it. Maybe you should look at that instead of jumping on the "DPS lag" that, while a catchy term, is only something that people who don't understand software could believe is a problem.

BTW, fix the zone/character changing memory leak problem that is causing the majority of the game crashes. It's been pointed out to you in the forums for months now. Fix the bloody thing.

[smatt]

Dunno, I've mostly seen intimitanks do it.
Only time I've seen a barb try to tank TOD didn't go so well. 9Could have been the Barb though,as I said, only have seen it once)

If TWF is so gimped, and this gimpness comes at the need to farm 2x the greensteel.
Why do so many people use TWF greensteel?

Wow, I'd much rather ToD when it's a Barb/DPS on main rather than Intimi, while intimi on Suulo seems eaiser simply due to the ease of healing without worrying about constant curses.... Do it both ways... DPS main tank is much faster and more reliable on Horoth...

[grodon9999]

"lag" is a smokescreen - this is all about the nerf, don't kid yourselves people.

[Wurmwood]

What would jeets do?

[Yajerman01]

...mostly.

yeah i know but there might be a ring of truth to it