Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[TreknaQudane]

I have a lvl 20 monk epic equipped,
if the developer nerf the TWF i will stop to play DDO and i return on WoW... i prefer the lag,and not you that nerf TWF, you are destroing a class.... is against the rules of d&d... nerf the twf and you will lose a monthly payer VIP.

The emphasis, is of course, mine... per the rules of DnD it should get harder to hit things the further into your chain that you get.

This change pretty much emulates that effect if not the mechanics

[Khelden]

1st, dual chaosblade = dual epic chaosblade.

2nd, you DON'T have to invest MUCH MUCH MUCH more into a TWF. What do you invest more? Time? EVERYBODY invest time to get better, thing is, the cap of potential for TWF is HIGHER than THF, and it should not be. Stats? Yeah... a THF will start with 8-10 dex, while a TWF will start with 15. 5-7 points is no big deal when you compare with the attack speed of TWF (good for effects), the way their attack skills works (ex: smite evil on 2 attacks instead of 1).

Considering everyone's answer, it would be ok to make a THF, but only if you plan on not playing much. RIGHTTTTTT, that's really a nice way to look at things.

[Eladiun]

hopefully one of the things that they are looking at is the fact that lag seems to be tied to the character with the worst machine/latency in the group. my lag is random in the shroud and ToD UNLESS someone is saying they are lagging. at that point, the whole thing seems to just start/stop.

Actually, we a had a great example last night in Shroud. One player had lag to the point where he was 3 portals behind in Part 1. He decided to drop and reconnect. The second he dropped the rest of saw an instant improvement.

[Harncw]

sorry if this was already covered in the 500 replies... I didnt check...

what if you just enticed players to run raids with less than full parties?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I have a lvl 20 monk epic equipped,
if the developer nerf the TWF i will stop to play DDO and i return on WoW... i prefer the lag,and not you that nerf TWF, you are destroing a class.... is against the rules of d&d... nerf the twf and you will lose a monthly payer VIP.

A new player saying "Don't do it or I'll go back to WoW" and "I like lag" really doesn't help the anti-change case.

[Khurse]

I can live with it if it effects all TWF more or less the same (within a single percentage point or two).
But if (and I hope I'm misunderstanding) this lets things like Exalted Smites have a(small) chance at happening 3 times, yet TOD is still one time/15 sec timer, it would kinda suck.

[Gypsy_Mouse]

I don't play DPS characters at this point so I honestly can't give any feedback about the proposed changes except the bard part. Perhaps I'm jumping the gun and projecting DoooOoOoOOOM for no good reason, but I am NOT happy about the prospective Warchanter bonus song.

It is hard enough to get a Virtuoso into higher content, to a lesser degree a Spellsinger and I play both. But with this possible addition to the Warchanter, it seems like it's going to be **** near impossible to get anyone to take any other bard when it comes to elite and epic dungeons.

I know, I know, without knowledge of what the other bard classes will get later down the road there's no need to get all bent out of shape yet. But I'm not feeling so yippy-skippy about this. I do hope y'all are planning some huge bonuses for the other two bard classes to help balance the viability of the three.

[Tomalon]

I'd like to take the post to reiterate, I can live with the lag, don't change anything.

Agreed! as the grps i run with turn off the combat feedback and other thing and our lag is generally not that bad. the raids are playable.

And lets remember one thing here people they are talking about this fixing DPS lag which IIRC is only in endgame raids. and mostly in just 3 of those raids TOD,Shourd part 4/5 and VOD(not even that bad in VOD imo) so this purposed change, to NURF TWF DPS for 100% of the game, to maybe fix what.... 3 quests

[Grendyll]

So about greensteel you say :

I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

And about Epic SoS you say :

Momentary insanity.

Would you really entertain a nerf to greensteel before entertaining a nerf to epic SoS? Do you think greensteel is unbalanced but epic SoS is ok to leave alone?

[MrkGrismer]

Maybe if it was more like:

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		100%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		100%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		84%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		84%
20 [Other]			100%		84%

I'm not sure about the others (and not sure about wind stance 4), but basically a main hand bonus for things like Alacrity and Zeal, and an offhand percent equal to 5/(number of offhand attacks under current system). That way the number of attacks stays the same. Although I have to say I don't really see how making the offhand a percentage that gets checked EVERYTIME the main hand swings is an advantage over just keeping track of the number of offhand attacks in an attack sequence. UNLESS you are looking at completely getting rid of attack sequences and making the entire combat system about just one attack (per second? per two seconds?) that has a chance of processing different things (including offhand attack), done over and over (maybe with 'random' animations?).

[bandyman1]

My rogue already took a DPS nerf with the introduction of adjustments to attack speeds based on BaB.

This nerfs her again.


In addition; You're nerfing my monk and my kensai.


Yeah; I just came back after a three month break, and was about to resub.


Guess I'll save myself the money.

[Stamp3de]

Actually, we a had a great example last night in Shroud. One player had lag to the point where he was 3 portals behind in Part 1. He decided to drop and reconnect. The second he dropped the rest of saw an instant improvement.

This is true. Another example is in a tavern brawl, if someone has a pretty bad connection, the whole brawling area lags to hell.

[Sarnind]

1st, dual chaosblade = dual epic chaosblade.

2nd, you DON'T have to invest MUCH MUCH MUCH more into a TWF. What do you invest more? Time? EVERYBODY invest time to get better, thing is, the cap of potential for TWF is HIGHER than THF, and it should not be. Stats? Yeah... a THF will start with 8-10 dex, while a TWF will start with 15. 5-7 points is no big deal when you compare with the attack speed of TWF (good for effects), the way their attack skills works (ex: smite evil on 2 attacks instead of 1).

Considering everyone's answer, it would be ok to make a THF, but only if you plan on not playing much. RIGHTTTTTT, that's really a nice way to look at things.

This is ridiculous, a warrior or barbarian with epic SoS/Xuum has the best dps of the game

[Dinglebarry]

Is this an alternative? Or maybe it works like this already...

I'm not sure where the problem lies, but I'm assuming it's the 'dice' rolls of data going across the net connection, or the calculation thereof that's causing the problem. Random numbers being requested of size xx/yy/zz and sent back to the client.

Why not make a static table, of lets say 4kb (or whatever size is needed) of dxx/dyy/dzz combat related dice rolls that are synchronized with the server? *only* the index in this table is sent, the spell, weapon used etc is already known by both client & server.

The server determines the index into this table and sends the index back to the player whenever they 'attack', the same index is used in all dxx/dyy/dzz tables and x positions forward depending on the weapon/spell/whatever was used. The client also has this table, but the client only uses it for the log file & the dice display, this prevents hacking of the table, since its informational only on the client.

You could make this table common for all players, each player could be sent a different index into the table which determines their rolls, thus appearing random.

Example:
You attack, the server sends back *only* the index to the table and uses the relevant number of indexes forward on the server side calculations. The client receives the index, *blah* gets printed in the combat log from the local table.

I've probably not thought of something obvious...

Would this help?

[Visty]

How exactly is TWFing only useful to Rogues in PnP? I've played many TWFing melees in PnP, but they certainly weren't all rogues.
.

in pnp the tohit penalty actually matters
with thf you thus get +4 more dmg per hit (pa+2, double that for twohanded)
also finding one uber weapon is easier then 2 uber weapons
also thf weapons have higher base damage

rogues are good with twf as the more hits you get, the more sneaks you do

other classes just lack the bonus damage which would make it better then thf

oh, and it costs 3 feats

[Sarnind]

alternative? reroll all TWF and farmin epic von

[Khelden]

This is ridiculous, a warrior or barbarian with epic SoS/Xuum has the best dps of the game

Yeah... A warrior right.

[maddmatt70]

1st, dual chaosblade = dual epic chaosblade.

2nd, you DON'T have to invest MUCH MUCH MUCH more into a TWF. What do you invest more? Time? EVERYBODY invest time to get better, thing is, the cap of potential for TWF is HIGHER than THF, and it should not be. Stats? Yeah... a THF will start with 8-10 dex, while a TWF will start with 15. 5-7 points is no big deal when you compare with the attack speed of TWF (good for effects), the way their attack skills works (ex: smite evil on 2 attacks instead of 1).

.

Well lets talk about the investment. I think whenever you make a one hander shroud weapon it should be duplicated to two weapons. Weapons should now become sets as in a two handed set or a two weapon set. Its just dumb to make two weapon players work harder for less dps. When I find a dwarven axe in a chest it should be now a set of dwarven war axes that I wield.

It really is not worth going to two weapons anymore it costs more (twice the price in ingredients and plat), hurts stats more, alot of effects do not work at the end game, and it does less dps then the highest thf dps. For that matter an epic SOS is so much easier to acquire then two epic chaosblades.

I have played two handed characters and have so much more fun playing my little dwarven dual wielding dwarven axe fighter. If you make him substandard well I will be displeased and I will not respec him into a greataxe fighter even if its better because well forget that.

[Yajerman01]

This argument of investment ignores all the other associate benefits of TWF

I agree that TWF has other social benefits, but in comparison to the output to DPS they are minimal.

However, for argument sake, i will side in that regard with you, so long as you allow me to free respect my character becasue I wont want to be a TWF anymore, and how about deconstructing my two khopeshes so I can use my ingredients elswhere.

Less we forget the grind to get them since I wont get that back.

Is my investment outweighed by the "nominal" side benefits?

doubt it.

[Slowe]

For what it's worth, you may be overlooking a thing here - TWF is the more popular style because there are more classes that benefit from it - rangers, rogues, paladins, monks, even fighters to an extent - the core damage bonuses of these classes don't change at all with THF and benefit much more from the direct multiple attacks that TWF offers. Barbarians are the only class whose main damage dealing ability, strength, is altered by THF in a positive manner and that's why most of them go THF for maximum effectiveness. THF has the added benefit of not costing dexterity. By reducing the effectiveness of TWF you are for the most part reducing the effectiveness of the listed classes and giving Barbarians even more power over them, despite the fact that Barbarians already are the dominant endgame melee.