Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[WNxDaCraw]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.


I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

If fixing the server speed is the issue why not just make an across the board clock slow down for the game. So every thing gets a hair slower with out making broad changes to existing combat systems.

It just seems to convenient that your lag fix happens to be the 2 characters I hear complaints about. If you want to nerf them like all the other MMO's then just do it. Players are used to it, thats why new games can start up because the older ones start nerfing classes untill the game isn't worth playing.

Thanks for your time

[IronClan]

If fixing the server speed is the issue why not just make an across the board clock slow down for the game. So every thing gets a hair slower with out making broad changes to existing combat systems.

It just seems to convenient that your lag fix happens to be the 2 characters I hear complaints about. If you want to nerf them like all the other MMO's then just do it. Players are used to it, thats why new games can start up because the older ones start nerfing classes untill the game isn't worth playing.

Thanks for your time

Amazingly in 3000 odd posts yours is not a new thought, and you're not the first to erroneously imply they are doing something sneaky. Apearently you're not the first (or 500th) person to miss the part in the OP about "reducing TWF's extreme dominance". It is a nerf with some small lag benefits along with some other attempts at lag reduction (the clunky double strike thing). Which is spelled out pretty clearly.

I totally agree with you on slowing the game or just combat down a bit (preferably slowly over time) to reduce the effect of spikes of lag induced by sudden server and/or client congestion... But apparently the user base is steadfastly against even the slightest change to the speed and prefers this combo of nerf/stacking haste reduction (which might very well prove not to be enough, which might entail greensteel nerfs to follow)

IMO this is somewhat akin to a bunch of drivers preferring their Mustang be "nerfed" of 30hp (10% of 300hp) and possibly more later; than slow down from 100 MPH to 90 MPH...

[Sigmend_Divine]

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

my current build is a twf kopesh ftr and with aclarity and haste 4 i think he can keep up with any tempest build

[OpNazzz]

If haste is the problem with server lag, why are you leaving in enhancment haste and spell haste? Why not just eliminate all forms of haste from the game? This seams like the fairest way to go. It isn't right to leave rouge , fighter and monk haste enhancment boosts and allow casters to haste buff parties for 3 minutes if this is trully what is causing the servers to lag.

When children read what you have posted they might believe what you say, but when an adult reads it and see's between the lines it has the taint of a white lie.

Also while you are at it since you want to eliminated the perma haste from my Tempest, calling him a Tempest now doesnt even sound right. These are the words in the Tempest description.

Tempest I, II, III - These dynamic rangers have more skill and expertise in fighting with a weapon in each hand than anyone else. Constantly training, they can eventually become tempests of whirling steel.

That sure sounds like they should fight better and faster with two weapons than any other to me.

Please if you have to press nerfdate 5 through and gimp my ranger, rename the ranger prestige line to Ginsu or Subpar fighter, something else other than Tempest. Thxs

[IronClan]

If haste is the problem with server lag, why are you leaving in enhancment haste and spell haste? Why not just eliminate all forms of haste from the game? This seams like the fairest way to go. It isn't right to leave rouge , fighter and monk haste enhancment boosts and allow casters to haste buff parties for 3 minutes if this is trully what is causing the servers to lag.

When children read what you have posted they might believe what you say, but when an adult reads it and see's between the lines it has the taint of a white lie.

So you're an adult and you don't see how 115% might be okay (maybe just at the threshhold) but 130% (just above the threshold) might be too much? Lets say you're going down the road and a Cop clocks you at 60 in a 55... What happens? Well you're an adult so you know he's probably not going to even look up from his newspaper... Now try the same thing at 10MPH faster... Suddenly not only is he pulling you (at least where I live) he's giving you a reckless driving ticket that is twice as expensive as a normal speeding ticket... Wow that 10MPH really made a difference.

[OpNazzz]

@Alhaz1970,
Your analogy is based on there being a "speed limit" everyone has to follow to prevent server lag, in nerfdate 5 this is not true if they remove selected haste and leave some of the haste in the game.

If there is now going to be a "speed limit" to prevent the lag from haste problem then all of the haste should be removed from the game.

Thank you for helping to clarify my point Alhaz1970.

[IronClan]

@Alhaz1970,
Your analogy is based on there being a "speed limit" everyone has to follow to prevent server lag, in nerfdate 5 this is not true if they remove selected haste and leave some of the haste in the game.

If there is now going to be a "speed limit" to prevent the lag from haste problem then all of the haste should be removed from the game.

Thank you for helping to clarify my point Alhaz1970.

Well you clarified that you missed my point 15% haste on top of normal combat speed = 60-65 MPH in the analogy while "stacking" haste boosts on top of haste = 70-75 MPH in the analogy...

Surely you can differentiate the difference between 115% combat speed and 125% combat speed? Where 125% represents (say) fighter alacrity on top of normal haste spell?

The point is they seem to be saying that STACKING haste bonus' on top of haste are causing issues... not haste by itself... which would be the reason they don't need to just get rid of the whole haste concept.

Or they are hoping to only have to change the stacking and might also have to nerf haste spell if the double strike thing doesn't do the trick...

It gets very frustrating seeing how many people seem to come into this thread with the idea that lag is one big On/Off switch and that each attempt to "fix it" is a finger flipping the lag switch off... Instead of the reality... of being an incremental series of slow downs, backups and bottlenecks that all conspire together... the "fix" or better put: the treatment, for lag is also going to be a series of streamlining designs, reductions in bottlenecks and improvements in efficiency...

I think the Devs could do a better job of explaining that, but apparently they aren't nearly as interested in this thread as they were indicating before the deluge of anti-nerf sentiment.

[OpNazzz]

Ok i'll put it this way then. If Tempest is supposto be the best TWF with the fastest attacks per the prestige enhancment notes, should'nt Tempest be the one who keeps its haste? Or possibally given an enhancment bonus to haste like the rest who are not supposto be the best or fastest at TWF? The main selling point on Tempest is to be faster and better at TWF not one or the other.

<edit to add> It is not like Tempest has the option to skill into THF like a fighter does. It's TWF or bows for Ranger.

[IronClan]

Ok i'll put it this way then. If Tempest is supposto be the best TWF with the fastest attacks per the prestige enhancment notes, should'nt Tempest be the one who keeps its haste? Or possibally given an enhancment bonus to haste like the rest who are not supposto be the best or fastest at TWF? The main selling point on Tempest is to be faster and better at TWF not one or the other.

<edit to add> It is not like Tempest has the option to skill into THF like a fighter does. It's TWF or bows for Ranger.

Pretty off topic but IMO you can use ranger levels to pretty much make any build you want. Now a THF ranger is severely outside the box thinking and will never out DPS a min/maxed THF fighter or Barb (or a tempest ranger), but you'll have 7 feats just like a Pali or Barb, plus you'll have favored enemy DPS boosts, Ranged feats (ranged is getting attention soon) and TWF feats for free just in case you wanted to dual wield vorpals, and you'll get ranger spells.

No one who thinks only a Barb or WF should ever use THF will be impressed but if you wanted to build a THF that had self buffing, self healing, full BAB, with ecxellent skills and nice synergies with a 1 rogue and 1 monk splashes the argument could be made for a THF ranger ... Of course with TWF so much better than THF in all but the most extreme examples of twitch/Epic SoS why would anyone not use those free TWF feats?

[Natashaelle]

I've been testing (soloing) bastard sword & board on a couple of lowbies on Lama, and my overall conclusion, compared to other S&B toons that I've played, is that quests are significantly faster to run, and levelling up is noticeably easier.

[Khellendros13]

I've been testing (soloing) bastard sword & board on a couple of lowbies on Lama, and my overall conclusion, compared to other S&B toons that I've played, is that quests are significantly faster to run, and levelling up is noticeably easier.

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

[Meetch1972]

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

/popcorn This might be the good part! Edge of the seat suspense here!

I really want to know the answer to that. Anyone?

[Krag]

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

Not a speculation, but a solid fact confirmed by devs.

[AbsynthMinded]

Amazingly in 3000 odd posts yours is not a new thought, and you're not the first to erroneously imply they are doing something sneaky.

If you believe that they [Turbine] are being intellectually honest, you are delusional. Regardless of how this will effect us, there are things going on that they are not telling us, will never tell us, and will deny the existence of once we start seeing the undocumented effects on our play experience.

[IronClan]

If you believe that they [Turbine] are being intellectually honest, you are delusional.

Whats intellectually dishonest, is saying things like "they're hiding a nerf in a lag fix" (or variations on that theme) because doing so riles up more people who are ignorant of the OP or subsequent posts by Eladrin. It's always easier to polarize an issue into black and whites and then attack it; than it is to recognize that it's a complicated multi-faceted issue. No, it's a much more successful tactic to spread simplistic FUD and intentionally inflammatory posts (such as calling someone delusional because he doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't interpret "extreme dominance" as a cut and dried no bones admonition of needing to be BALANCED by a NERF, or doesn't bother to read the OP where it's spelled out in terms anyone who can operate the intertoobs should be able to understand, has no business talking about delusions or intellectual dishonesty... And is probably being willfully obtuse so they can grind their narrative axe.

Regardless of how this will effect us, there are things going on that they are not telling us, will never tell us, and will deny the existence of once we start seeing the undocumented effects on our play experience.

And you are accusing me of being delusional? Are you describing the CIA's black helicopters or a game developer that makes entertainment and doesn't have time to document every tiny bit of minutia that some small percentage of the user base even gives a cr@p about?

[Natashaelle]

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

Hmmm, thanx for that information, but I was really comparing between previous S&B lowby soloing on Lama and S&B with a bastard sword now

My lowbies on the Euro servers have even less trouble levelling up, because they are outrageously twinked

[AbsynthMinded]

Whats intellectually dishonest, is saying things like "they're hiding a nerf in a lag fix" (or variations on that theme) because doing so riles up more people who are ignorant of the OP or subsequent posts by Eladrin. It's always easier to polarize an issue into black and whites and then attack it; than it is to recognize that it's a complicated multi-faceted issue. No, it's a much more successful tactic to spread simplistic FUD and intentionally inflammatory posts (such as calling someone delusional because he doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't interpret "extreme dominance" as a cut and dried no bones admonition of needing to be BALANCED by a NERF, or doesn't bother to read the OP where it's spelled out in terms anyone who can operate the intertoobs should be able to understand, has no business talking about delusions or intellectual dishonesty... And is probably being willfully obtuse so they can grind their narrative axe.

And you are accusing me of being delusional? Are you describing the CIA's black helicopters or a game developer that makes entertainment and doesn't have time to document every tiny bit of minutia that some small percentage of the user base even gives a cr@p about?

As I've mentioned before, the request for our input here is a fake. They don't really care about our opinions or suggestions, especially those that run counter to their predetermined agenda. I can agree with some that the thread is essentially dead and player to player dialogue or debate is purely academic, unrelated to their agenda.

Call it a NERF a LAG FIX or what have you, the core of what they are really trying to assess is the overall reaction to their changing the core of systems we players understand. Likewise as I've mentioned, the end result is irrelevant as long as players perceive the game environment as unchanged in relation to difficulty of overcoming the quest obstacles. In fact, Lag aside, as long as the game environment appears to be more or less the same for time/effort vs. risk/reward no one will give a flip what they do to the code. However when this goes live and everyone gets the impression of 'it just isn't right' then Turbine will have PR issues. This of coarse is beyond the undocumented or unintended issues which always arise for such a change.

The problems that exist are caused by implementing a complex crafting system for phenomenal powers on arms and armor which in of themselves are generating considerable stress on the systems. This escalation of the crafting is necessary for the ever increasingly difficult content, which is another realm of bad design decisions on Turbines part. The suggestion that speed was ever the real issue is also a Fake, because if that were truly the case then the suggestion of a blanket slowing down of combat could, should and would be considered first. As they believe changing the core systems is the better solution, there is much more going on than is being suggested. Simply stated, they are blinding us with science avoiding the simple solutions.

As an aside, trusting any gaming company to do what's right when so many feel that it's decisions are wrong suggests some delusional thinking somewhere. I can assert that it could be in either camp or both. I understand that a company has to do the best with what they got. I also understand that expectations of excellence are often left unfulfilled. I did not call you delusional for not agreeing with my or anyone's argument, only in that you may be idealistic in your belief that they are ethical when they say changing the core systems is the right move.

[tasebro]

...the core of what they ["they" = "turbine"? "devs?] are really trying to assess is the overall reaction to their changing the core of systems we players understand...as long as the game environment appears to be more or less the same for time/effort vs. risk/reward no one will give a flip what they do to the code. However when this goes live and everyone gets the impression of 'it just isn't right' then Turbine will have PR issues....

Agreed. (excellent summary BTW)
Therefore it follows that the only relevant issue that interests Turbine, is ultimately money;--not "change", not "excellence", not arbitrary "Game Balance" justifications, but "money"; i.e.: maximum income for a minimum return on their investments (i.e. funding for development/maintenance vs profit margin production on same).

That is business.

Coincidentally, that just happens to be my "single issue" interest on the receiving end of this:
As a pay-as-you-go player, I have an expectation of a given "return" on my investment of time&money that I put into buying pay content and building toons to interface with that content.
When I like Turbines' "product", I reward them by :
1. investing money in buying (desirable) content with purchased turbine points;
2. investing money in buying (desirable) build upgrades with purchased turbine points;
3. promoting same by good word of mouth to encourage others to do likewise.

My "return" on this investment (or perception thereof) is directly proportional to my continued interest in investing further in DDO via turbine points.
Any devaluation of my now-purchased content or build upgrades will naturally be perceived by myself (and many others) as a acute disincentive to provide further reward (i.e.: money) to Turbine. Official statement of intent to do just that in nerfdate5 greatly reduces my level of confidence in my investments yielding expected return past nerfdate5, making me decidedly reluctant to risk further investment only to see the result is just another nerf.

Point is: I dont want ANYONE'S builds to get nerfed--
My builds get nerfed: I loose.
The players I like to run with get their builds nerfed, get disgusted, find something else to do, I loose.

Whether or not that will be considered a "PR issue" by Turbine is yet to be seen, but frankly I am not optimistic, gauging from official statements of intent, and the nature of business, and market pressures, which will ultimately determine the outcome.

...This escalation ... is necessary for the ...bad design decisions on Turbines part. ...they ["they" = "turbine"? "devs?] believe changing the core systems is the better solution, there is much more going on than is being suggested. Simply stated, they are blinding us with science avoiding the simple solutions....

Agreed.
But again, Turbines' ultimate motivation here--as with any for-profit business--is simply to get maximum income/return for a given investment.
The marketing behind that motivation is based on official intent, and spinning the story to make it sound as good/appetizing as can be to buyers.
So you get nerfdate5 as the outcome, sold to us as the notion that "'less' is the new 'more'".

I have no doubt that from Turbines' point of view, changing the core systems is the "right move", and indeed "ethical" on the balance. Clearly, the business model established by blizzco, ("the WoW model") makes money handoverfist catering to the lowest common denominator, so the overwhelming tendency to follow that model is clear, and given enough pressure to do so, they will do just that, even tho it means mediocrity.
However, the obvious downside of following the "WoW model" is that market is already taken (in spades), and in my view the prudent business decision here for Turbine is to take the high road, and cater to the existing DnD customer base, and promote excellence over lowest common denominator marketing chasing after blizzcos' scraps. If I wanted to play WoW, I would do so. I don't want to for good reason.

Of course taking the high road means not jacking with the core game mechanics to sucker invested players into buying ever more turbine points to repair the cyclical damages done, and it means trusting your paying customers to remain loyal, so its a two way street, but the payoff is there, as it is now, and has been so since DDO went F2P, so maybe the new ownership has yet to clue in on that yet.
We shall see.

To put a dollar value on the costs vs benefits here:
I currently have two toon builds that I am interested in leveling to 20, and so I am in the market for purchasing +2 to all stat tomes for them both to get some good mileage out of...but with nerfdate5 looming, I am very much disinclined to invest in another 50 bucks worth of turbine points to purchase those build upgrades only to see those upgraded toons get nerfed next fall (like my main is fixing to get nerfed in two weeks).
So that means 50 bucks worth of Turbine points goes unpurchased, and those toons remain unupgraded, in a semi-limbo, waiting to see how bad nerfdate5 will be when it goes live.
While I am sure that is in no way a "PR issue" for Turbine, it is an indicator for me as to where things are headed.

The obligation clearly falls upon Turbine to do the right thing here, and if nerfs must be made to ANY builds for practical reasons, then the players deserve as good or better deal than they now have, or if that is not practical either, then some sort of avenue for making FREE REPAIRS to builds must in good faith at least be offered (free reincarns, reclaiming of purchased tomes, deconstruction of greensteel, etc).

[Meetch1972]

Agreed. (excellent summary BTW)
Therefore it follows that the only relevant issue that interests Turbine, is ultimately money;--not "change", not "excellence", not arbitrary "Game Balance" justifications, but "money"; i.e.: maximum income for a minimum return on their investments (i.e. funding for development/maintenance vs profit margin production on same).

That is business.

<stuff deleted 'cos you can read it above...>

The obligation clearly falls upon Turbine to do the right thing here, and if nerfs must be made to ANY builds for practical reasons, then the players deserve as good or better deal than they now have, or if that is not practical either, then some sort of avenue for making FREE REPAIRS to builds must in good faith at least be offered (free reincarns, reclaiming of purchased tomes, deconstruction of greensteel, etc).

+1 rep the detail in summarising player concerns.

I'm STILL just hoping that there is indeed a compensation for the DPS nerf for TWF by lowering NPC hps in line with it - then IMHO it's technically not so much a nerf for TWF as a scaling down, and other classes DPS boost.

The slower rate of combat will still feel different/wrong for many who do feel the DPS. Others won't care. I happen to mostly fall into the latter camp, and it will help me that I'm not running a high attack rate build at the moment - the thing that keeps me from being entirely in don't care territory is the thought that others may give up because "it's the last straw" or such and detract from the volume of the player base.

I'm still not sure many people understand that the OP isn't about trying to cloak the nerf/balance adjustment in a fix intended to help sort one aspect of lag issues, but change both at the same time, presumably because they figure both need to be done. That isn't necessarily a good idea because, as has already been stated, the first rule of performance tuning is to change one thing at a time. In reality it comes down to how many times you can take the system down to make adjustments before players start to leave 'cos they can never get on when it suits them, and a rules change SHOULD be able to coexist with a performance fix without too much risk.

I'm sure Eladrin and others have all the feedback they wanted, and then some. Numbers from the OP have been tweaked, maybe some other stuff done behind the scenes, maybe not. Once the dust settles after release we may see other adjustments, or if it really is all that bad, a reversal of the rules change. I'll wait and see, with a reserve of popcorn at the ready.

[MaJiK_13]

If haste is the problem with server lag, why are you leaving in enhancment haste and spell haste? Why not just eliminate all forms of haste from the game? This seams like the fairest way to go. It isn't right to leave rouge , fighter and monk haste enhancment boosts and allow casters to haste buff parties for 3 minutes if this is trully what is causing the servers to lag.

When children read what you have posted they might believe what you say, but when an adult reads it and see's between the lines it has the taint of a white lie.

Also while you are at it since you want to eliminated the perma haste from my Tempest, calling him a Tempest now doesnt even sound right. These are the words in the Tempest description.

Tempest I, II, III - These dynamic rangers have more skill and expertise in fighting with a weapon in each hand than anyone else. Constantly training, they can eventually become tempests of whirling steel.

That sure sounds like they should fight better and faster with two weapons than any other to me.

Please if you have to press nerfdate 5 through and gimp my ranger, rename the ranger prestige line to Ginsu or Subpar fighter, something else other than Tempest. Thxs

I completly and totaly agree. I Have a 18 tempest 2 ranger and it sounds like i should just keep him there instead of reseting my enhanments cause he'll have a better chance at hits. I guess i'll just have to wait and see.