Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[adRyft]

Um, 6 levels of ranger will still give you a 10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks. That's hardly a negligible bonus. Deal.

But not every toon with greater two weapon fighting has Tempest, Zeal, the Fighter Alacrity capstone, or Wind Stance 4 to make up for the DPS hit. And those are the only abilities that these numbers seem to care about appeasing.

For one thing, you probably won't see a barbarian go with two-weapon fighting anymore, ever.

Rogues have little choice, because more attacks mean more sneak attacks, but the -20% offhand still hurts them a lot, especially when not everything is sneak-attack viable to begin with. With trap skills already being potentially the domain of rogue splash builds, other than the mechanics you will inevitably see in mod 5 I can already guess that assassins will be less popular.

Clonks are null for DPS, now.

Favored Souls take a big hit unless they go with Warforged/Greatsword for two-handed fighting.

It just bugs me that the ones taking the biggest DPS hit are the ones who are hardly in the running for DPS of the year, anyway. I don't think it's TWF by itself that's overpowered... I think it's khopesh and multiple speed bonuses that broke the balance curve.

[Kaldaka]

Um, 6 levels of ranger will still give you a 10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks. That's hardly a negligible bonus. Deal.

How about the difference between 6 levels of fighter and 12 levels of fighter? those kensai bonuses I am sure are higher dps now than a lousy extra 10% proc ... or 12 levels of fighter versus 18? again kensai bonuses ... I know you get favored enemy and ram's might, but fighters can get weapon specializations, extra strength enhancements, etc. ... One way was FAR superior than the other prior to the nerf, but with these upcoming changes, I will probably want to go the other way.


But without free respeccing, its gonna cost me a whole lotta TPs to accomplish them ... so again this nerf = SUX ... It really only is truly hurting the ranger 6 splashes and monks.

[Rhysem]

A tad off topic, but... I can cope with combat changes, but when you're doing changes this extensive it is time to man up and give everyone a free respec. Multiple other big-name games do it. (I'm thinking in particular one with orcs, trolls, gnomes, dwarves, and elves... and one that's got a really sweet sidekick/minion grouping mechanic)

Of course, said other games don't sell respecs for real life cash in their game stores either...

On the plus side my character who needs it is on life #2 and only 8, so I think I only need a single +3 respec to fix things up but still. Asking for ~5 to 10 bucks to fix my character that you're breaking is weak.

(unless there's a reliable source of +3 hearts of wood out there I'm missing, which is possible)

[newroticslob]

Looks like the cart got in front of the horse with the devs upgrading the programming for the players. With today's technology, they are unable to meet the demands and expectations. The question comes down to who started the problem, the chicken or the egg?

The "nasty behind the scene" things are the inability of the hardware to keep up with the massive number of computations with such a popular game. Even the human brain has a limit. The best way to fix the problem is to cut down on the number of computations needed to be performed. Similarly, how do you save gas? Don't drive as much. However, this isn't feasible due to previous expectations being met fairly well.

Also, money comes into play. Who's willing to downgrade the abilities of their characters to ease up on the hardware? Umm... nobody. So, this concept is going to be implemented as a stop-gap until something better is found. Will it help? Only the number-crunchers can really say. Though they're only guessing. We'll see if it works. Either way, self-control will be needed to give the devs an opportunity to decide the best course for the game. It is funny how worked up we can get over a game. Might want to think about that next time you see someone throw their golf club or yell at a umpire/referee/fellow DDO'er.

[SkyCry]

How about the difference between 6 levels of fighter and 12 levels of fighter? those kensai bonuses I am sure are higher dps now than a lousy extra 10% proc ... or 12 levels of fighter versus 18? again kensai bonuses ... I know you get favored enemy and ram's might, but fighters can get weapon specializations, extra strength enhancements, etc. ... One way was FAR superior than the other prior to the nerf, but with these upcoming changes, I will probably want to go the other way.


But without free respeccing, its gonna cost me a whole lotta TPs to accomplish them ... so again this nerf = SUX ... It really only is truly hurting the ranger 6 splashes and monks.

Dude,
a) Just roll a kensai fighter, don't respect 18 ranger levels into 18 fighter levels, duh. Then you can also compare the two later to potentially disprove your own claim.
b) Fighters only know how to fight. If rangers were as good at fighting as fighters, but also could cast spells, sneak/spot/jump/swim and use a bow very well, then why would anyone go fighter? Be reasonable.


(Oh god, what have I done? Now the thread won't die as fast! )

[Aesop]

People keep talking about respecing their characters... I wouldn't do that right away.

Wait it out see how it plays and if you can get used to the changes

heck see that the changes are kept. Turbine could put changes live and then say that they aren't working or that the numbers need to be tweaked.... and that could cause another change.

Just ride it out to U6 if possible

Aesop

[tasebro]

People keep talking about respecing their characters... I wouldn't do that right away.

Wait it out see how it plays and if you can get used to the changes

heck see that the changes are kept. Turbine could put changes live and then say that they aren't working or that the numbers need to be tweaked.... and that could cause another change.

Just ride it out to U6 if possible

Aesop

Yes, but here's the thing: Turbine is a business. How they run their business--how they treat their customers--has consequences: Actions have consequences:
--they nerf vanilla in nerfdate5 (for "Game Balance" donchaknow, to make-the-game-more-fun),
--so then everyone abandons vanilla and instead invests money/time to respec over to chocolate because chocolate still works like its supposed to,
--so then they nerf chocolate in nerfdate6 , so then everyone invests money/time to respec over to strawberry because strawberry still works right, which in turn gets nerfed;
--and so on.
--when they have "Rebalanced" the entire build lineup, Turbine starts the nerf cycle all over again, nerfing whatever works best at the time to "make the game more fun", and working down the line.

Thats NOT "Game Balance", thats just bait and switch.

The consequence of this sort of arbitrary nerfs is that players (some sooner than others) eventually realize they can have zero confidence in their permanent build investment choices having permanent results as advertised--clear intent being: "if it works, its gonna get nerfed". It takes the Player Character building out of the players' hands. This is strong disincentive to invest money/time in permanent build choices other than pure-class (cookie cutter ), such as purchasing new race content, or +2 to-all-stat-tomes (basically +2 tomes are required for edgy custom builds to overcome inherent handicaps). Pure-class builds become the default build option as the most nerf-proof choices; this decreases variety, thus decreases diversity, thus decreases interest.

I am not interested in investing MORE money/time to have the rug pulled out from under me again. I am not really interested in pure-class toons (I like successful edgy custom builds, I like to SEE a wide variety of successful edgy custom builds running around).
In my view, after nerfdate5 goes live, it is then up to Turbine to put something on the table, to earn my trust back that my permanent choices yield positive benefit, and are not misconstrued as an invitation for nerfing. I can wait till update6, which better NOT be more nerfs thats for sure, otherwise no more money from me.

To restate: if they HAVE to make changes, they owe it to players to make such changes in the least debilitating way possible, out of respect and consideration for the time/money ppl have invested, or if that cant be done for practical reasons, the fair thing to do is to GIVE the players a slightly BETTER deal than what they already have, or if not possible, then a free repsec with no strings attached -- i.e. deconstruction of greensteel, or transfer greensteel into another type of craftable altogether (hopefully one that is not bugged this time).

[Kaldaka]

Dude,
a) Just roll a kensai fighter, don't respect 18 ranger levels into 18 fighter levels, duh. Then you can also compare the two later to potentially disprove your own claim.
b) Fighters only know how to fight. If rangers were as good at fighting as fighters, but also could cast spells, sneak/spot/jump/swim and use a bow very well, then why would anyone go fighter? Be reasonable.


(Oh god, what have I done? Now the thread won't die as fast! )

Did you see my sig? ... I have *ALL* types of characters ... My main concern is for the 12 fighter/6 ranger/2 monk or the 8 bard/6 fighter/6 ranger I have in the sig ... I have a pure level 20 kensai, I also have two tempest IIIs. So I know what the differences between all the classes are. I know what class gives you what at certain levels. I have studied this game to perfect my builds. I am *PROUD* of my builds. This nerf is smacking the bejebus outta more than a few of my builds, and no I'm not too happy about it, but I know I can live with it.


But when they tell me that my toons with only 6 levels of ranger is about to get the worst of the shaft, that's when I would likely wanna get rid of those 6 levels for something else.


P.S. This thread should never die ... its about feedback for one of the most significant changes to ever hit this game. And I though the WoP nerf was big ... Not even close.
And on a side note: What's hilarious to me is that the monks who were already the lowest on the totem pole for DPS are just about to be shoved even lower ...

[Aesop]

Yes, but here's the thing: Turbine is a business. How they run their business--how they treat their customers--has consequences: Actions have consequences:
--they nerf vanilla in nerfdate5 (for "Game Balance" donchaknow, to make-the-game-more-fun),
--so then everyone abandons vanilla and instead invests money/time to respec over to chocolate because chocolate still works like its supposed to,
--so then they nerf chocolate in nerfdate6 , so then everyone invests money/time to respec over to strawberry because strawberry still works right, which in turn gets nerfed;
--and so on.
--when they have "Rebalanced" the entire build lineup, Turbine starts the nerf cycle all over again, nerfing whatever works best at the time to "make the game more fun", and working down the line.

Thats NOT "Game Balance", thats just bait and switch.

The consequence of this sort of arbitrary nerfs is that players (some sooner than others) eventually realize they can have zero confidence in their permanent build investment choices having permanent results as advertised--clear intent being: "if it works, its gonna get nerfed". It takes the Player Character building out of the players' hands. This is strong disincentive to invest money/time in permanent build choices other than pure-class (cookie cutter ), such as purchasing new race content, or +2 to-all-stat-tomes (basically +2 tomes are required for edgy custom builds to overcome inherent handicaps). Pure-class builds become the default build option as the most nerf-proof choices; this decreases variety, thus decreases diversity, thus decreases interest.

I am not interested in investing MORE money/time to have the rug pulled out from under me again. I am not really interested in pure-class toons (I like successful edgy custom builds, I like to SEE a wide variety of successful edgy custom builds running around).
In my view, after nerfdate5 goes live, it is then up to Turbine to put something on the table, to earn my trust back that my permanent choices yield positive benefit, and are not misconstrued as an invitation for nerfing. I can wait till update6, which better NOT be more nerfs thats for sure, otherwise no more money from me.

To restate: if they HAVE to make changes, they owe it to players to make such changes in the least debilitating way possible, out of respect and consideration for the time/money ppl have invested, or if that cant be done for practical reasons, the fair thing to do is to GIVE the players a slightly BETTER deal than what they already have, or if not possible, then a free repsec with no strings attached -- i.e. deconstruction of greensteel, or transfer greensteel into another type of craftable altogether (hopefully one that is not bugged this time).

But all of that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm saying play through it for a couple weeks before jumping on the respec wagon. Things change, and sometimes they change quickly.

Whene they did the massive slowdown last sept/oct (ish) thye changed it shortly after the release because it wasn't working.

I caution against changing a build around as soon as the module is released because if something is not working then it will likely be changed again. Thus requiring another respec.

Give it some time and you may not have to change a thing.

as an aside: I personally love building characters as opposed to playing a"pure" class and would perfer it if the class choices we made weren't being made to be less effective than a pure class build. The entire Enhancement set up is pigeonholing characters so badly its hard to come up with new fun builds... Which is the major reason I still play the game

Hi, I'm Aesop and I'm an Altoholic

[tasebro]

But all of that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm saying play through it ... Give it some time and you may not have to change a thing.
...

Actually, "all of that" is VERY relevant, since the damage is already done, meaning "in good faith" no longer applies--regardless of after-the-fact damage control efforts (if any), the INTENT of turbine on this is very clear, and therefore I am wary of Turbine now; I for one am not willing to reward negative "changes" intent on eliminating whatever works effectively in favor of mediocrity, with positive rewards (i.e. more money).

If someone breaks into your house but you chase them off before they can steal your TV, its still "breaking and entering", a felony, with intent being established in the act itself, not the outcome; intent follows the attempt, not getting away with it.

The key point here is : "integrity"

Either turbine has it, or they do not. It falls on turbine to do the right thing here, not the players, who by the way have NO CHOICE but to "play through it".

[Athlonpv]

Unfortunately, it's cheaper and quicker to nerf the combat system

Removing the effect instead of the cause.

[Aesop]

Actually, "all of that" is VERY relevant, since the damage is already done, meaning "in good faith" no longer applies--regardless of after-the-fact damage control efforts (if any), the INTENT of turbine on this is very clear, and therefore I am wary of Turbine now; I for one am not willing to reward negative "changes" intent on eliminating whatever works effectively in favor of mediocrity, with positive rewards (i.e. more money).

If someone breaks into your house but you chase them off before they can steal your TV, its still "breaking and entering", a felony, with intent being established in the act itself, not the outcome; intent follows the attempt, not getting away with it.

The key point here is : "integrity"

Either turbine has it, or they do not. It falls on turbine to do the right thing here, not the players, who by the way have NO CHOICE but to "play through it".

Ummm... that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm posting.

Me: Don't rush into changing your characters build

You: Turbine has betrayed our trust

Me: what does one have to do with the other? I'm saying they may not keep the changes. So don't rush out to make changes to your character.

You: Too bad for them cause now we can't trust them cause they are destroying our builds even if they change it later, they still broke our trust.



Now for my next attempt.

Turbine has not promised you anything.
Turbine is not stealing anything from you.
Turbine is trying out something in an effort to balance their combat system better.
Turbine may find this to be an unsatisfactory solution and change it again soon.

I would suggest not changing your character until after you see the direction that Turbine is going.
If this change does not work, or makes the combat unfun
Turbine may change it again to a differnet solution as they've done before. However...

Turbine may find the solution works well and balances combat
If this is the case and your character is "broken" by the change then
You can use the new system to determine the best route to take your characters
If this change truly bothers you on some personal level and ruins the fun you have in game
THEN stop playing

The melodrama about betrayal of trust and comparing Turbine to a Burglar trying to steal your TV is ridiculous.

Games change, rules change and play changes... says so right in the license and disclaimer

I'm not sure I like these changes personally... though I'm leaning towards yes. The combat system (and to a larger part the Enhancement System) as stands limits character builds and eliminates interesting concept buids as nearly unusable. This isn't the whole of the fix for that, but it does feel like a starting point to bring the game back to a reasonably balanced game.

The way you've railed against this makes it sound like the end of the world and that just isn't true. Companies have to try new things in order to advance, some work and some they just have to reverse direction and restart. This could be either and you are already condemning them for no reason other than you feel wronged that things didn't stay the same.

Aesop

[Marewood]

I am afraid that this update will lead anywhere but to a more diverse DDO character wise. With this update we will not see fewer TWFighters but rather a lower versatility, that is fewer multiclasses and more pure classes, that is, particularly Tempest Rangers.

I know we all have been starving to see a few more Kophesh wielding Tempest III Rangers. After all they are most likely to take the least damage from this nerf according to the tables posted by Eladrin but maybe this will just be a bit too much. With the planned update it will become even more pointless trying to develop your melee character with a sense of roleplay and away from the mainstream, for example as an Assassin, a Ninja, a dual wielding monk or sneaking rogue splash. Pure class fighters and Pallys are probably also pretty bad off after this. What we are simply going to see is a new type of powergamer toon that will be respeced to accomodate the combat rule adjustments. So grind your Kopeshes and prepare to grind your way back up to 20...

[tasebro]

Ummm... that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm posting...balances combat ...melodrama...reasonably balanced game...
Aesop

1. This is not "melodrama", this is business. Cost-benefit. Investment-return. Free exchange with equitable benefit--AND reasonable expectation of same.
Therefore, if you want to do business (one may assume with the intent to "make more money"), it is prudent to keep your customers happy. Spin it however you like, but in the end its OUR money (gaming dollars), not turbines'.
Bait and switch =/= integrity.

2. "Game balance" applies only in checkers, not in games of chance--and by extension, wargaming in particular--the sum of the parts is not, and can never be, unity, therefore "game balance" is simply not applicable. But that never seems to stop folks from employing "game balance" as a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc excuse to justify flubs and gaffs in wargames, rather than simply admitting same for what they are. Self-delusion is a wonderful thing, but it is neither "reasonable", nor "balanced".
cf. #1 above.

Which is why what you are posting Aesop--with respect--is simply not relevant to the matter at hand.

[Meetch1972]

Dude,
a) Just roll a kensai fighter, don't respect 18 ranger levels into 18 fighter levels, duh. Then you can also compare the two later to potentially disprove your own claim.
b) Fighters only know how to fight. If rangers were as good at fighting as fighters, but also could cast spells, sneak/spot/jump/swim and use a bow very well, then why would anyone go fighter? Be reasonable.

Exactly! I think this needs to be stressed. A fighter (or barb) should only really know how to fight. It's splashing other classes that makes them more of something else (and less of a fighter/barb). A ranger as far as I'm aware is able to fight pretty well, but supplements any lack of melee fighting skill with extra ranged combat effectiveness, plus spells and abilities, including stealth!, which can help themselves somewhat, but also the greater party - at least they should!

I don't recall the last time I saw another ranger build of any kind dragging pet along, despite getting one in the very early levels (though having not played beyond level 4 with a ranger yet, I'm not sure how high they do get). However, in this thread I have read more than enough of the "OMFG my tempest can't shred X toe-to-toe in Y seconds any more 'cos his attack rate isn't high enough! It'll take a whole Y*1.15 seconds now and they'll actually hurt me more!" attitude.

I've never known rangers to be that dangerous within sword-swinging range in any other MMO. Kiting seems to be the way to go there, and I expect those who are good at that will continue to make significant contributions to the group dynamic in damage done even before anyone enters melee. Everyone just wants to zerg through hand crafted quests without even really listening to the DM, and if these changes force a little more thought, I'm happy to spend the few extra minutes trying to help the party work as a unit.

Still, it seems that it will be necessary to appease those who have invested in a build optimized with exactly one purpose in mind that sucks at almost everything else. I also hope the developers remembered to slow down NPCs with the same DPS rule adjustments.

(Oh god, what have I done? Now the thread won't die as fast! )

Shame on you!

[Meetch1972]

2. "Game balance" applies only in checkers, not in games of chance--and by extension, wargaming in particular

Uhhhh since when has any raid in DDO been a game of chance? The only real "random" nature in any significant quest/raid seems to be whether anyone will DC mid quest, whether those involved know their part, how well they are able to play it, and whether they will suffer from lag issues.

When you are beating a boss that's immune to vorpal, stat drains, paralysis etc, most of the random nature of the boss fight is turned into a statistical analysis which boils down to three letters: DPS. Take VoD for example. You don't know exactly how much damage you're going to do in the next 10 seconds, but can project pretty darn well how much damage you're personally going to do to Suulo over the next few minutes while he's got his back to you and stupidly focussing on the intimitank. Plus you've planned for the orthons, devils and bats. If I were DM I'd be mixing it up and turning Suulo around and using his strengths against the whole party who have generated far more combined aggro than the tank hiding behind his shield. I'd also be giving Suulo a lot less hit points to compensate for the pain he's going to be able to inflict on the rest of the party. But the DM here is a heuristic, and no matter what the developers do to make things "interesting"/"random", it's always countered by an "exploit" aka strategy - a formula for "beating the quest" with the resources you have.

A good group is a statistically moderated, well oiled machine, not a game of roulette. DDO is no more a game of chance when it comes to DPS than the weather bureau is guessing how much rain you'll get in the next couple of hours. Please don't suggest it is.

[Marewood]

I don't recall the last time I saw another ranger build of any kind dragging pet along, despite getting one in the very early levels (though having not played beyond level 4 with a ranger yet, I'm not sure how high they do get). However, in this thread I have read more than enough of the "OMFG my tempest can't shred X toe-to-toe in Y seconds any more 'cos his attack rate isn't high enough! It'll take a whole Y*1.15 seconds now and they'll actually hurt me more!" attitude.

Well the point is that Rangers are perhaps the only class that will come out of this nerf widely unscathed in terms of TWF. Fighters, Rogues, Pallies and Monks are the ones that will really suffer greatly when using two weapons. So this nerf will mess up the build of a great number of people out there including me who spend a lot of time and effort on speccing their toons and i cant say that i am too happy about this.

Still, it seems that it will be necessary to appease those who have invested in a build optimized with exactly one purpose in mind that sucks at almost everything else.

Well, not everyone who has focused on TWF is a mindless zerger. I love to play my toon with focus on fun, versatility, roleplay, and going beyond the mainstream. But loosing almost 1/4 of your attacks (which is the case if you dont splash in tempest) is more than just a mild adjustment to the combat systems and i expect those toons to have a hard time to get into raid PUGs in the future.

[IronClan]

Well the point is that Rangers are perhaps the only class that will come out of this nerf widely unscathed in terms of TWF. Fighters, Rogues, Pallies and Monks are the ones that will really suffer greatly when using two weapons. So this nerf will mess up the build of a great number of people out there including me who spend a lot of time and effort on speccing their toons and i cant say that i am too happy about this.

The two seperate breakdowns I've seen by two number crunchers who didn't seem to agree woith each others perspective (one of them posted here around 8 or 10 pages back) both seemed to concure that the Ranger is actually hardest hit in terms of before/after percentage of DPS. Something around 12-16% hit, versus something around 8% hit for a fighter...

Well, not everyone who has focused on TWF is a mindless zerger. I love to play my toon with focus on fun, versatility, roleplay, and going beyond the mainstream. But loosing almost 1/4 of your attacks (which is the case if you dont splash in tempest) is more than just a mild adjustment to the combat systems and i expect those toons to have a hard time to get into raid PUGs in the future.

Hey me too we're rather outnumered here (on the forums anyway) by Zergers and Optimalists.

The question that no one poses is, if high level raids and epic groups start turning up their noses at TWF, and we also have THF saying they will now be "turned away" also due to them being nerfed to not get glancing blows when they are doing the twitch, then I guess all those elitist group leaders will have to only except S&B..

I can see it now, the avarage elitist LFM will read "no pikers, fast run, know quest, NO DPS!"

[Creeper]

Hey me too we're rather outnumered here (on the forums anyway) by Zergers and Optimalists.

If you do a forum search for the word "Optimalists" you get one result; this thread.
Just thought that was very interesting fact! Ok, back to topic.

[Cyr]

I can see it now, the avarage elitist LFM will read "no pikers, fast run, know quest, NO DPS!"

No it will still read "No noobs".

For Marewood,

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...