Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[cforce]

Ok, stop, here's the big important question:
Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

QFHTNOTH. (Quoted for hitting the nail on the head.)

[Thrudh]

You mention DA as one of your proofs, and while they left DA in, if you had been there to test DA you would know that what we have is substantially better than what was first put on the test servers.

Exactly... Before, the alerts came with a lot less aggro, and there was no "warning" alert like green-alert (which currently has zero effect).

The devs do listen, and they do make changes based on our feedback.

[wolfy42]

THF damage especially end game is already way to close to TWF damage in my opinion and it is a valid option for many builds.


With full THF feats and enhancements you can add about 30% of base DPS from glancing blows (vs one enemy).

THF builds usually have far more strength do to no dex requirements and a higher AB to boot (other then vs a tempest build).

THF builds can be made without needing tempest to optimize damage.

Damage of THF is HIGHER till minimum level 11 pretty much universally right now and ALWAYS hits through DR better.

I agree that you can squeeze out a bit more damage with good equipment with TWF right now if you build a character right, but you need to work harder to do so, get better equipment and sacrifice other aspects. It works especially well with rangers favored enemy damage, rams might bonus etc.

For pure damage though THF is not that far behind and with these changes the 30% proc chance of THF is going to be almost as good as the bonus proc chance from TWF even vs only a couple enemies.

Two handed weapons have a larger attack range then TWF weapons as well which is a fairly significant advantage already.

Nerfing TWF all together is crazy. If you really really have to change something change rangers I guess (wouldn't even suggest that) but so many other builds will be destroyed by the changes mentioned. THF will become the main combat style for everyone. I like feeling semi unique with a few of my builds

[xTethx]

Eladrin said this, look at the part in red.


Currently, Touch of Death does not have any chance of procing a second unarmed attack, because it would always double strike when it did, unless touch of death is changed in update 5, the above statement quite literally says Monks in wind stance have a 75% chance to double strike ToD

If you read one of Eladrins previous statements, ud also realize that she says all "hook" attacks (off hand) have their own separate and unique attack and damage rolls. Sorry no double TOD for monks 75% of the time.

[Vynnt]

I saw it mentioned on like page 12, but no where else, shouldn't Alacrity bonuses proc a double strike on both main hand and offhand?

If it doesn't proc on offhand, then alacrity heavily favors thf over twf because it works for all of thf's attack, and only 1/2-2/3 of twf attacks.

Although, even if it does give a chance to go off on an offhand, it still favors thf because thf get a 10% damage increase for 10% speed loss on each swing, while twf only get 7-9% damage increase for a 10% speed loss on each swing (10% for mainhand, 10% * 55-90% for offhand).


Also, what about action based speed boosts? Will they still increase speed? or doublestrike chance?

[rkreutz]

As far as i understand, even the tie from the offhand to mainhand, for physical detection, alone, is already a nerf to twf!
If u fight several mobs arround u, and the mainhand kills the target, then currently the offhnd attack will get a diffrent mob and hits (thats how i experienced things so, well, i might be wrong). In case offhand is tied to mainhand, in this situation the offhand attack would just go into nirvana. which means, ur dps is cut down, evrytime u finish off a mob, with more arround u.

[Raelys]

My gut reaction is that this would hit my dex based assassin 20 rogue extremely hard. It's not even the character I'm worried about (she's getting TR'd anyway), but the playstyle. Going dex based and relying on extra procs and sneak attack for damage is hardly an overpowered, min/maxed, or niche build, and yet this change would make it completely unviable. Traps can be handled just as easily by trap-minded rogue splash. Damage wise, a frenzied barb does more damage, needs less resources, and is much more survivable. It's all too often already that I'm asked to bring my cleric or my bard into a raid because it'd be more useful than my little rogue. In the name of "balance" my already second-class character would be dropped completely off the face of the earth.

Likely if this goes through, my cleric won't be affected, my warchanter will probably LR to use two-handed weapons, and my rogue will vendor her dual tier 3 greensteel rapiers and TR into a frenzied barb ~.~

[Seliana]

No offense but this just reinforces the idea that your mind is made up and you are just selling it to us else if the public, your customers, don't like something then the change it would require would/could force you outside of your time frame as well. Meaning it/they wouldn't be done.

Yep, sounds like this is going in then wait for for the players to moan enough until some future date that you may fix it back.

I don't believe the logic here is quite that dark and sinister. From past experience what I have seen is when they bring around an idea for discussion to the playerbase is mostly already programmed at that point and they simply want an initial feedback from the community regarding it. Sometimes it results in the idea being pulled or placed in a waiting period(Heroic Surge) and other times it goes in regardless of what the community has to say about it(Dungeon Alert).

I also don't believe that the Development team is actively ignoring suggestions so much as getting feedback about how people feel with this current idea since development on it has probably already been completed. It's possible they may take a look at some ideas in threads such as this or revisit different ways of performing server checks when their timetable allows for it, However Eladrin is not required to respond to every individual idea or acknowledge every concept. I doubt that he's in charge of most of these decisions being made recently as well. He works at a job just like anyone else does in this thread and they have certain timeframes, schedules, and people they need to answer to.

If he says its not feasible in the time he has, hes probably right.

[Thrudh]

Also, what about action based speed boosts? Will they still increase speed? or doublestrike chance?

Under the current proposal, they still increase speed, but they will look at them later to possibly make them increase double-strike chance instead...

[GoldyGopher]

I've been thinking about this more.

IS my math wrong the higher your percentage chance now to hit a target will result in a greater percentage loss of successful hits.

In the current system for 100 swings with an 85% chance to hit you get 85 hits.
In the new system that character lands 65 hits (40 main hand, 21 off hand, 4 double) = ~25% fewer hits

Yet if in the current system you only have 75% chance to hit. The new system = 20% fewer hits..

I have to double check that... Doesn't seem right..

[Dylos_Moon]

If you read one of Eladrins previous statements, ud also realize that she says all "hook" attacks (off hand) have their own separate and unique attack and damage rolls. Sorry no double TOD for monks 75% of the time.

1. Eladrin is a he, he is the voice of harry in the shroud.
2. ToD already double strikes on non-unarmed attacks, this is why ToD cannot be used with weapons. It was only ever useable with weapons on lamannia.
3. Eladrin also said in a previous statement that any trip attack would proc trips on the offhand, and any smite attack would proc smites on the off hand, why should we assume that ToD should be the special case here?

As I mentioned in my previous post, ToD currently has a 0% chance to proc a second attack, period. This has always been the case for unarmed ToD, this also happens on fists of light/fists of darkness/stunning fist. However unlike Fists of Light/Darkness when ToD was useable with weapons for a short amount of time on lamannia, it triggered two ToDs.

[Angelus_dead]

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness.

That does not follow. Avoiding infinite recursion is a well-documented computer science technique from the 20th century.

It should be a simple matter of nomenclature to allow the attack granted by a double strikes to have a chance to include an offhand attack, without also giving it the chance to create an additional double strike.

[bobbryan2]

Exactly... Before, the alerts came with a lot less aggro, and there was no "warning" alert like green-alert (which currently has zero effect).

The devs do listen, and they do make changes based on our feedback.

Green alert has an effect...

[curiousgis]

I am opposed to this nerf. While I hate lag as much as anyone else, gimping all the fighter type builds is not a good idea. If our DPS ability goes down does that mean the bad guys will no longer have thousands of hp and will all the players get a lesser heart of wood to redo their now NERFED toon? I doubt it.

For most of us DPS lag only happens in raids, this proposed solution will hurt everyone.

[Tolero]

Just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback in the thread. I know it's a hot topic, and people will have strong opinions, but we really appreciate everyone's civility and thoughtfulness on this.

I've seen comments about "the lag". There is no such as "the" lag, there is lag in a general sense. It's more appropriate to think of lag like "disease" rather than a single particular illness that can be cured. There are many kinds of diseases in the world, but they all have the same result - the person is unhealthy. Saying "FIX LAG" is pretty much the equivalent of saying "CURE ALL DISEASE!" Obviously it is a wonderful goal to want to cure every known disease, but it's a bit outside of scope. Thus, you target as many forms as you're able to improve over all health. So too it is with lag. There are many types, and there are many situations that can contribute to it. We conduct tests and monitor performance, and target the worst offenders to improve game health. Threads like this are imperative to the development team's work, so thank you very much for your reactions, thoughts, ideas, and general curiosity.

Regarding Lamannia - we will be wiping characters, however, we don't have plans to regularly wipe the Lamannia account info. This means that if you use Lamannia-only points to purchase premium features for preview, they will be there for you later. So if you're premium and have restricted access to a certain race or class, it behooves you to use any of the Lamannia-only points you receive to unlock these features so you can copy your most important characters when you want. We plan on having more Lamannia points give-aways for those who are participating in the preview/feedback of Update 5. We're targeting next week if all goes well.

[slimkj]

The haste remains, the stackable insight bonus to haste poofs for all classes that have them (monk air stance 10%, ranger tempest 10%, fighter alacrity 10%, paladin zeal 10%) and morph in to either a stackable chance for offhand weapon to attempt an attack or a chance to double attack with the main hand weapon.

Its really the significant reduction in offhand attacks that has TWF's in arms, and THF's crowing to the winds.

Yeah I edited it back in a second time. I was just posting my initial reaction. I don't really care about dps to be honest, things usually die and whether it's quicker or slower isn't what concerns me. What I like is that blurry fistmash you get from monks in wind stance. To a lesser extent, it's why I enjoyed my tempest ranger over in Europe too.

[Yaga_Nub]

Seliana and I are on the same page here... Want to reduce DPS lag? Reduce the number of rolls and computations required without nerfing the game entirely and ****ing off you customer base!

And why no Dev comment on Seliana's or my ideas? Could it be you have already made up your mind and this is just your way of selling it to the customer base (and in the process selling your +5 Hearts of Wood)? I am getting a bit perturbed here. You are not giving us a democratic vote, only a ruse.

I said before I don't play TWF characters much so this nerf would actually increase my prowess on the server since I prefer THF... But what I don't like is the way you are trying to swindle and **** off the customer base. You want our honest feedback? You are getting it! Now behave in a transparent manner and tell us what you plan to do with our ideas.

This isn't a democracy. Eladrin is god. Now you behave in a respectful manner or will may be smitten down.

[Alter]

From what I gathered on this:

Reduce lag by reducing dps.

Alter

PS. How about we get rid of dungeon alert and we can call it even?

[Chai]

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

This is actually realistic. I know 9 single weapon forms and 4 double weapon forms, and I can tell you right now that the two weapon fighting style forms took at least 4 times as long to learn. To master these so you are not chopping your own limbs off in demonstration takes alot of practice and hand eye coordination. Its also not realistic to think you can control two weapons to be equally effective without years of training to undo all the mental conditioning built up over the years directed at favoring one hand over the other, and even then, its still not completely possible.

Most people cant even throw a baseball half as far with their "offhand" than they can with their "mainhand" - yes it takes a huge investment in training to become "almost as good" with your offhand. In real life we are looking at 10 + years jsut to break conditioning. This is reflected in part in the game by the higher feat investment and in part by the minus to hit when using two weapons. You want to learn to be all fancy schmancy drizzt style - buck up and invest the time. Otherwise, spend that time hitting the gym and do some powerlifting, and learn the luohan hammer style of fighting.

[Dylos_Moon]

Regarding Lamannia - we will be wiping characters, however, we don't have plans to regularly wipe the Lamannia account info. This means that if you use Lamannia-only points to purchase premium features for preview, they will be there for you later. So if you're premium and have restricted access to a certain race or class, it behooves you to use any of the Lamannia-only points you receive to unlock these features so you can copy your most important characters when you want. We plan on having more Lamannia points give-aways for those who are participating in the preview/feedback of Update 5. We're targeting next week if all goes well.

When will I get access to modules, classes, races, and character slots that I have purchased on the live servers, or credit for the 30000+ TP I have purchased on lamannia?