Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Jarlow]

Lets say my off hand in double strike hits at 80% then is it my second hand has a 20 roll to hit with the penalty for two weapons if the 80% works first then the proc of my bounes for the weapon. Thats if my main hand weapon hits with my two weapon penalty for the chance at the 80%.?

[Jarlow]

wy is the fighter being gimped when that gimps the hole group on a quest?

[Jarlow]

Iv seen people throw numbers out like they dont lie<but people due and they make no sense if u do the math>

[weewoo0]

[QUOTE=smatt;3024658]
Now, it looks like what they already tried, which was clearly PARTIALLY implemented, didn't have the desired affect.


you could even take their physics doubling up even farther. apply it to the dmg roll the hit roll and the many other roll i'm sure they hide from us >.> .... this would solve a bit of the lagg by simply halfing the amount of calculations. leave our attack speeds and proc rates along (tick fewer people off) barely touch our DPS (you roll a 1... well thats 2 1s... ) and you get people to stop yelling DoOoOooOoOooOoM..... maybe.... i'd say lets save my hide here (2 TWF chars >_<) but idc at this point i'd just like to see how this'd affect lagg.
and taking GTWF's main benefit (the extra offhand strikes) and turning it into an 80%... erm.... doesn't that make another roll? to replace the physics check you just got rid of? 2 (physics checks) -1 (eliminated offhand physics check) + 1 (do i get an offhand attack? check) = 2 total checks still.... and you ticked off people in the process... in truth lagg is lagg lets just say you won't fix it make us all happy!!!! (lagg is primarily based on the individual computer's end anyways if you have a low spec comp in the grp..... lagg has found its way in)

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!


(had to edit it as i went... apparently P I S S is **** while tick ain't)

[Jarlow]

i was whanting 2 simplify but u said it better what does it have to do with lag<but if the game is old on the bought out servers for what game warner bros>

[Jarlow]

It will affect lag if less chance to roll for it it ends all proc at main hand for most toons with out twf>

[Jarlow]

only on quests though but frees up game server

[Jarlow]

If your going to minimize space for more room for another game with out telling people who have paid would this not be the way?

[Zaal]

But when they slow the whole game down.. Well then it's not fun for a VAST majority.

Just throwing out ideas here... perhaps just the raids can be slowed down but again, to offset the slowdown, monster hp can be reduced, bonus xp, etc...

+1 for ya both!!!!

[Kalaxia]

Just throwing out ideas here... perhaps just the raids can be slowed down but again, to offset the slowdown, monster hp can be reduced, bonus xp, etc...

Actually.. that would work just fine, but I would handle it a different way and go the route of the ICC WoW buff. You wouldn't need to adjust the mobs or xp or anything then.

When you enter the Shroud (or whatever raid), there's an aura buff that hits all players, something like:

Tainted Aura of Whatever:
- This buff decreases all attack speed (and casting speed?) by 25%, but increases all damage rolled by 25%.

25% is obviously just a wild number. It would have to be balanced somehow, or it could cause problems.

It could work tho... if done correctly.

[Krag]

Actually.. that would work just fine, but I would handle it a different way and go the route of the ICC WoW buff. You wouldn't need to adjust the mobs or xp or anything then.

When you enter the Shroud (or whatever raid), there's an aura buff that hits all players, something like:

Tainted Aura of Whatever:
- This buff decreases all attack speed (and casting speed?) by 25%, but increases all damage rolled by 25%.

25% is obviously just a wild number. It would have to be balanced somehow, or it could cause problems.

It could work tho... if done correctly.

Or just add some Hat of Nerf Bat that consists of 5 rare ingredients and allows you to grab loot in the last part.

[Zaal]

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for entertaining the idea and yeah, regardless of the "plus" to offset the "minus", hell yes it's workable!

And, no global nerf to the combat system!!!!!!

[Zistra]

Since nobody (and specifically the devs) has seen fit to comment, I wish to revisit this now, some 50 pages later:

Under the title: What we don't know about lag..

Which is to say ALMOST EVERYTHING. We know nothing (best I can tell) about the sources of lag or what the Devs are considering to address them except for what the OP has mentioned. So how can we intelligently debate whether the proposed change(s) will fix the problem(s)? Here are the things I can think of from the mushroom-like place wherein I dwell.

1. Is lag a math-based problem? If so, the proposed change to the physics check has a decent chance to improve it. Heck, if that check is being made on every swing, clearly that is a programming problem to begin with.. swing frequency increases over time MUCH faster than movement speed does. A target in range and hittable is far less likely to not be by the next swing when the swings are closer together. Tie the physics check to time passage, rather than swings and you will reduce its frequency considerably in higher-level content. Probably more than just by turfing the one for the offhand attack. Determine once per interval which target(s) are hittable and which are not. This leaves open the ability for a TWFer to hit different targets with main and offhand; the OP does not seem to clearly indicate whether removing the 2nd physics check for the offhand will.

2. Is lag a communications problem? Is it about propagating too much information to/from each client? If so, pick a point at which to aggregate said information but potentially allow after-the-fact access to the detailed combat log for those addicted to dissecting the play-by-play post-mortem {hmm.. possible bad choice of term }

3. Is lag a programming issue? Is there some piece of code that requires optimization, and in what respect? Can the worst cause(s) be somehow offloaded to dedicated hardware?

4. Is lag a purely load-based issue? Would throwing more hardware at it make a difference? If so, what kind of hardware? Could you somehow instance the few quests that trigger the issue onto a dedicated server? How many such would be required to make the problem go away? I'd live with a waiting list to start a run cause all the dedicated servers were in use...(within reason, of course).

5. Is lag truly only a problem in certain quests? Can those quests simply be rewritten to avoid it?

************************************************** ********
Strong opinion follows... not all argument provided due to space constraints:

I am categorically opposed to any change that many are willing to state forces over 50% of players (80% maybe?) to reroll or respec their toons completely and invalidates all the effort they put into customizing gear. This is a game-breaker. Our entertainment is not supposed to frustrate us to this extent. I am unlikely to be able to continue to play this game myself, and I hear others with similar opinions. Refunding our VIP monies is the least they should do for those of us driven away by such a sweeping change, forget about allowing free TR's or Greensteel rebuilds for those who stay. This changes the product I bought into something virtually unrecognizable. Not fair to do that to any product AFTER purchase. Nerfing is ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. Maybe power creep is a problem, but the solution is to not release power upgrades until they are completely sure they will never be reconsidered, not to rewrite half the combat system after several years in business.

I vote no to the TWF nerf. If you want our input into how to resolve the lag problem, provide us with more information on that problem, not on your proposed 'solution', which looks far too unrelated from here.

Conclusion: NERFS IS BAD! Always!! But the longer the 'status quo' has gone on, the worse it is to nerf it. People have invested their time, thought, effort and real $$$ into speccing toons based on a system that has been consistent for the 7 months or so I've been playing DDO. It is NOT RIGHT to take their valuable effort and invalidate it. It is borderline fraud to change the product we purchased into something less valuable to us AFTER we have bought and paid for it. Power creep is good, by overwhelming comparison. It makes people happy when you give them more. TOO MUCH power creep is bad. But there should be an expiration date on nerfs.. if it isn't necessary to nerf it within 30days, it ain't broke enough... Don't nerf it! Why the #*(@& would you alienate your most dedicated paying customers? Bad business.


Not that there's any evidence any Dev has been reading this thread for the past several days...

[Zistra]

Of the 3500+ posts in this thread (of which I have read well over 2000... oh my aching head!), probably 80% have been more about game balance than lag. Perhaps the game balance actually does need addressing. I play all kinds of toons, and don't find the need that compelling... certainly not enough to generate the level of aggro the OP has .

OTOH, there have been some excellent suggestions in this thread for improvements that would be positive, rather than nerfs. Suggestions like new ways of looking at shield bashes, or feats. I hope the devs consider some of those suggestions, as I feel they would add value to the game.

What they are not, as 99% of the posts are not, is any help in addressing the lag issues... ANY lag issues... because the devs have simply not provided us enough information about lag in ANY of its supposedly multitudinous forms to even form an intelligent opinion about it, let alone make helpful suggestions. So let this thread die, not because it has been hashed to death, but because IT HAS BEEN IRRELEVANT FROM THE BEGINNING!!! And it's the OP's fault for a bad initial post. Bad in that it linked 2 unrelated things (Lag and Game Balance) and worse in that it provided no basis on which to debate the critical one (Lag). For shame, Eladrin.

[AbsynthMinded]

Since nobody (and specifically the devs) has seen fit to comment, I wish to revisit this now, some 50 pages later:

Under the title: What we don't know about lag..

Conclusion: NERFS IS BAD! Always!! But the longer the 'status quo' has gone on, the worse it is to nerf it. People have invested their time, thought, effort and real $$$ into speccing toons based on a system that has been consistent for the 7 months or so I've been playing DDO. It is NOT RIGHT to take their valuable effort and invalidate it. It is borderline fraud to change the product we purchased into something less valuable to us AFTER we have bought and paid for it. Power creep is good, by overwhelming comparison. It makes people happy when you give them more. TOO MUCH power creep is bad. But there should be an expiration date on nerfs.. if it isn't necessary to nerf it within 30days, it ain't broke enough... Don't nerf it! Why the #*(@& would you alienate your most dedicated paying customers? Bad business.


Not that there's any evidence any Dev has been reading this thread for the past several days...

With no argument, Nerfs ARE bad.. I would add that the issue of lag is always either core code based, memory leaks and the like, or hardware and throughput based, login server issues and peak usage lag.

The DEVs never really cared too much about our opinions to begin with if such opinions were counter to their agenda, so their lack of commentary should not be taken personally.

That said the DPS lag as it has been named is being caused by the Greensteel crafting system and the sheer number of added computations the system was not designed to handle well. Over time the players are reaching 20, and over time they start crafting Green Steel. There after, toons at a minimum level are gaining Greensteel equipment. The number of procs on armor and items plus the various burst damage and crit modifiers.. It's staggering, no doubt..

Its all a problem they created.. I would have the balls to say Greensteel Crafting stops on X date. Then release the bound flags on all the existing Greensteel Items. Possibly make them unable to be attuned as to make them always take perm damage over time. As well retool all the high end content to be in better balance with the new reality. Oh, and a full hardware overhaul or migration.

[Zaal]

Well, it would be fair to say that the resources inside a RAID are a bit more intensive than those on a 6 man instance.

Heck, the game didn't have a raid when it started out and now that code has to content with multiple raids running concurrently.

And yeah, it's easy to see how greensteel contributes to the problem since the weapons have so many procs.

Perhaps there should be a dedicated RAID server using SSD's for database access that flush to the default server once the users leave the instance.

But really, I fall back to slowing down RAID combat and offer incentives to players for having to deal with it, like more damage or reduced hitpoints or more xp.

I don't think its fair so slam the devs though... We the player base wanted crafting and we got it. Sure we didn't want it mess up our game but we also wanted it to be powerful. And turns out we got a bit of both

[Zistra]

OK, so here's my opinion about lag. It is, of course, based on no DDO-specific information, since the devs have not seen fit to offer any.

It is almost impossible to overload a processor with simple calculations. I don't care how many weapon effects you have occurring simultaneously, those are incredibly simple mathematical calculations. If there is lag, it is almost certainly either bad code (REALLY bad), there are FAR more complex calculations going on than we can see (exactly what IS a 'physics check') or it is a communications throughput issue. It is a (relatively) simple thing to overload bandwidth, especially with a multitude of small packets... even moreso when each packet requires confirmation to be returned. The usual solutions are to aggregate information or to simply determine what information is critical and send only that when things get close to overload. Network managers have been developing the tools for some 3 decades now to determine exactly what is happening on any given swamped connection and identify the nature of the bottlenecks. Reducing the data sent in total (without changing its nature) is never more than a bandaid fix... IMHO, that's what the proposal to reduce DPS (as it relates to lag, rather than game balance) amounts to.. a bandaid fix when exploratory surgery is what is required.

So what information IS being passed back and forth during combat? Can it be reduced? Aggregated? Can some be delayed? Modified in some other way? Is there any non-combat information that can be streamlined? The suggestion to turn off the 'Who' search by default is an example. If that has ANY effect, clearly at least PART of the problem is in bandwidth management. Maybe each player's connection should be tested at sign-in and those with slow connections either denied access to raids or shunted to specific servers where the speed of combat is reduced as necessary to compensate. The key is that if there is ANY way to reduce lag without impacting MOST of the player base (especially the paying player base), then those avenues need to be investigated FIRST.

And if you want useful input on a subject, provide some useful information on which to base that input. You have a ton of very talented, very dedicated people playing this game. Why NOT make use of their expertise FOR REAL?

[samthedagger]

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!

Yep. Ran an epic-level game. Had a two weapon fighter in the group. And he rolled for EVERY attack, EVERY round.

Players like rolling dice.

*shrug*

[Tharum_Ironblood]

So DPS lag is different to solo lag in the explorer areas ? I haven't read all 7 million posts in here yet. So if i swap my hard ground out off hand weapon for say a shield, there will be no more lag, no more running into walls in explorer areas because the enemy have swapped out their off hands too ? I wont randomly DC when entering the desert, hunger will cease in third world countries, oil companies will research more into hydrogen fuel cells. OMFG down on your knees *******. We have been saved.

Seriously tho the new game will be called what "Stormreach - A fantasy MMO loosely based on an awesome game that we now have nothing in common with"

Not sure if its my middle age kicking in or what but **** I am loosing heart here.

Please stop moving the goalposts to cover up your inabilities to make it work with all the money I and others have paid you over the last 4 years.

I have ranted and will now return to my lag free cave where I can climb ladders first time, every time.

Has anyone heard of Pac-man the MMO as I will soon have some dollars to spend every month.

Harriet

[Metuselah]

The nerf is an obvious sign of the games downfall, aka start of the "game broken-ness". The reason for the nerf is simply to create a purchasing increase in order to compensate. This will then lead to other things which cumulativly break the game and thus a waste of everyones time and money. These money hungry goons are going to milk the nerf unless enough people speak up and scare those vultures off. This is an angry post and the words were chosen for that reason, its a harsh taste of reality. I have now spent well over $70 on the game and to be blindsided by this scam, yes i say blindsighted because ddo has a very posotive reputation in the gameing community and for a low end trick like this to start is in my book qualafied to be termed as blind sighted. I am distgusted with this turn of events and most defenitly will be moving to another game as well as continueing to rally people to realize whats at stake.