Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[tasebro]

...A 10% chance to proc an extra swing is definitely NOT the same as a 10% speed increase.[/B]

The magic word here, in case you missed it: Chance
...

You are so right.

Pretend I am your GM, and I emailed you the following memorandum: " So, yeah, you guys are taking too much of my time rolling all those d20 to-hit/damage checks, so I have decided that from now on, everyone except tempest rangers shall only hit on a 4+ (d20), and said rangers (the worsts offenders) shall only hit on a 5+ (d20)...and oh yes, I will still roll for monsters d20 to-hit checks at the usual 2-20...but this is going to be really cool, because it will improve Game Balance, and make the game more FUN! "

Would anyone here be cool with that nugget of Fun-by-Tyranny? because that is exactly what a 10% reduction in DPS means.

But then again, the above translation is not quite right either, because even on a "4 up" (or "5 up" in the case of tempest) hit check, you still had a CHANCE to roll a natural 20 for critical hit on 1, 2, or 3, (and 4 for tempest) where as eliminating the dice rolls altogether (a la nerfdate 5) eliminates 2 or 3 dice rolls altogether, so you loose even the CHANCE to roll a natural 20..and that does not even look at the elimination of Attack Speed Boosts and the extra dice rolls they are supposed to generate.

How is this acceptable to any player?

That fundamental chance to roll a 20 is vital: it represents the wildcard "Joker"--that remote but ever present random chance of good fortune that ones' actions can prevail in the worst circumstances in spite of all odds.
Call it "mystical cleverness bereft of reason", or "favor of the gods", or just call it "necessary exception that proves the rule", whatever you call it, that dice roll (i.e. the small chance to jackpot) is our direct interface to "heroic" in DnD.
When you eliminate that, you eliminate the whole point of heroic fantasy.
Clearly that principle is no longer a relevant consideration in DDO.

[SquelchHU]

So I just put Alhaz/Chai on ignore. Labeling them together because he's even talking the same way now, making me question the possibility of sock puppets. This thread became much smarter.

I agree with all the statements to the effect of 'fix your servers to keep up'. Nerfing players because you don't have enough money to crunch their numbers is just going to result in you being in more of a financial bind, not less.

[smatt]

So I just put Alhaz/Chai on ignore. Labeling them together because he's even talking the same way now, making me question the possibility of sock puppets. This thread became much smarter.

I agree with all the statements to the effect of 'fix your servers to keep up'. Nerfing players because you don't have enough money to crunch their numbers is just going to result in you being in more of a financial bind, not less.

I'm sure that anybody you squelch is devastated..... No really they are...

[Aspenor]

[XenonTempest]

Oh, I forgot to mention in my post a couple of pages back, and got reminded when someone brought up double paralyzers.


Yeah, instead of doing a mainhand>offhand chain right now, which allows me to play with Imp.CurseSpew(Main) + Paralyzer/Smiting/Disruption(Off) (Which is much better than twin para/disrup/smiting in my book), Now i'll have a 80% chance of landing the second...

[SquelchHU]

One moment.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my post a couple of pages back, and got reminded when someone brought up double paralyzers.


Yeah, instead of doing a mainhand>offhand chain right now, which allows me to play with Imp.CurseSpew(Main) + Paralyzer/Smiting/Disruption(Off) (Which is much better than twin para/disrup/smiting in my book), Now i'll have a 80% chance of landing the second...

Oh, it's worse than that.

Yeah, we played on Lammania earlier, my wife on her pure assassin rogue. It was pretty sweet to say the least, and we were not even hasted. The only thing that really sucks is if you were dual weilding different greensteels to get the advantages of both, the offhand is now worthless. Can't effectively do something like a Lit 2 in offhand with a Radiance in main hand, you'll never see a big boom lightning, and if you switch, you'll never blind anything. So now you have to make sure you match weapons, or use an Improved Destruction or something else that is reliable in offhand.

Not 'sees 20% less', but 'never sees'.

You know, for anyone out there who still thinks that TWF has any sort of advantage from the offhand. Doesn't matter how awesome the offhander is if it won't apply. Ever.

What's that? +15 Sword of Immunity Bypassing All Rolls Are 20 Vorpal? Sorry, if it's in your offhand you still fail.

Ok Aspenor, NOW the thread is dead.

[R0cksteady]

So now that it's been tested and we know this does nothing for lag, can we drop this game and build breaking mechanic change and just scale DPS down instead? Just lower attack speed by 10% or something. Then it scales down all builds equally, instead of hitting some harder than others (Tempest and monk).

[Maleth]

You obviously have me confused with someone else I can't imagine why I would agree with you about two weapons being equal to one weapon, a major part of why TWF is overpowered has to do with having twice the possible weapon effects/bursts/stats etc..



I've been playing MMO's since before they coined the term MMORPG, let alone when it got shortened to MMO...

BTW I've seen nerfs that would make your head spin based on your reaction to this TFW thing. I subscribed to the MMO that popularized and personified the term nerf for 8 years. Until you take a bunch of characters that took YEARS to grind to the cap; through a nerf that entailed the rebuilding of the entire combat system (no joke) from the ground up you don't know squat about nerfs. Nerfs bigger than this TWF change were a MONTHLY occurrence.

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?



Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.



I don't even need to say anything here... Those are obviously the comments of someone who has very limited experience outside of DDO.

I'm one of those casual players you are referring to so casually. I have a main at level 15 and I have been playing since F2P. Now that being said, I hate this change as much as ever other TWF that min/maxes. Why? Because it doesn't matter if you min/max or not. A nerf is a nerf and no gamer who at least tries to make a reasonable attempt to put out some semblance of DPS likes a nerf. How hard is that to understand?

And this is not a competition as to who's coconuts are bigger because you said something like "I walked barefoot uphill in the snow in 1972". Jesus, what kind of argument is that? People have their own experiences. Just because you view your own as superior doesn't mean jack...

[Kalaxia]

Coupling the offhand to the mainhand collision is a great start, and as a programmer it makes sense to me. It may not be enough to reduce the lag completely, but it sounds like a reasonable start.

However, I don't see the need to lower the offhand % then. You've already taken 1 step towards eliminating the entire offhand collision calc, it shouldn't matter if players are still rolling 100% offhands at GTWF. Just leave GTWF at 100% offhand with the new system, and bump up THF damage to come closer (IMO, the effects proc % needs a heavy boost.) Then change stuff like tempest to 4-5% doublestrike per tier instead, and you're set.

Balance would be somewhat preserved, and some calcs are reduced.

Part 2: The next step would have to be more drastic to reduce lag further. I've seen mention of lowering all attack speeds, however there would need to be major rebalancing in order to accomplish this, or there would be a huge snowball effect. I'm not sure if this would mean even more doublestrikes? higher proc rates to even it out? higher burst damage since they burst less often? Much slower attack speed would need to be compensated somehow or the content would be heavily imbalanced.

IMO, part 2 of lag reduction sounds like something for the next patch after

[Darkrok]

Coupling the offhand to the mainhand collision is a great start, and as a programmer it makes sense to me. It may not be enough to reduce the lag completely, but it sounds like a reasonable start.

However, I don't see the need to lower the offhand % then. You've already taken 1 step towards eliminating the entire offhand collision calc, it shouldn't matter if players are still rolling 100% offhands at GTWF. Just leave GTWF at 100% offhand with the new system, and bump up THF damage to come closer (IMO, the effects proc % needs a heavy boost.) Then change stuff like tempest to 4-5% doublestrike per tier instead, and you're set.

Balance would be somewhat preserved, and some calcs are reduced.

Part 2: The next step would have to be more drastic to reduce lag further. I've seen mention of lowering all attack speeds, however there would need to be major rebalancing in order to accomplish this, or there would be a huge snowball effect. I'm not sure if this would mean even more doublestrikes? higher proc rates to even it out? higher burst damage since they burst less often? Much slower attack speed would need to be compensated somehow or the content would be heavily imbalanced.

IMO, part 2 of lag reduction sounds like something for the next patch after

Great post. The nerfs to certain twf classes - especially for monks that already struggled to keep up in similar gear - hitting harder than others doesn't make sense, doesn't directly address the lag, and don't seem well thought out. The single collision check was an inspired change that makes all the sense in the world.

[Zaal]

slow the combat engine down by 10%, decrease monster hp accordingly or bump up xp accordingly and the problem is solved - and nothing gets nerfed.

[Calogrenant]

slow the combat engine down by 10%, decrease monster hp accordingly or bump up xp accordingly and the problem is solved - and nothing gets nerfed.

They tried doing what you said last year. Slowing down the animations. They had to insta-backpedal before the angry mob torched down turbine's buildings. And somehow they were right, because things were just too slow.

The solution here is, just like some guys said, to fix those quests that have certain mechanics that make them become laggy, like the shroud pretty much.

Cheers

[Zaal]

They tried doing what you said last year. Slowing down the animations. They had to insta-backpedal before the angry mob torched down turbine's buildings. And somehow they were right, because things were just too slow.

The solution here is, just like some guys said, to fix those quests that have certain mechanics that make them become laggy, like the shroud pretty much.

Cheers

I believe there's a sweetspot to be had here. Plus yeah I remember the slowdown - what I don't recall was compensation to the player base for said slowdown.

If there is such compensation, it's reasonable to assume the change will be digestable especially if it really does fix the lag issue.

[argentstar]

Aspenor is right. Let this thread die. The Devs stopped paying attention after 1/2 way through page 1. This nerf is comming. There is absolutly nothing anyone can say or do to stop it. Yes, there are many many ways to fix the lag without this nerf but it's the nerf that they want. They couldn't give a rats behind about the lag or they would have addressed it a long time ago in a completely different way.

[Zaal]

yeah i suppose i see it that way too

[Jovial]

Ill bet if the Devs would remove all current content and replace it with a nice game of checkers they could reduce the lag to almost nothing. problem solved! We could play for hams.

[smatt]

They tried doing what you said last year. Slowing down the animations. They had to insta-backpedal before the angry mob torched down turbine's buildings. And somehow they were right, because things were just too slow.

The solution here is, just like some guys said, to fix those quests that have certain mechanics that make them become laggy, like the shroud pretty much.

Cheers

You're right they can tweak damage per swing all over he place.... Ya, it'll **** off the "I need to uber and brag about my DPS" types. But MOST people won't care all that much as long as it's not drastic. But when they slow the whole game down.. Well then it's not fun for a VAST majority.

I think, if people actually read what Eladrin has said Good luck there... And gather all that he's said in the last 10 days, they would get that this isn't jsut about the Shroud, or ToD, or current DPS lag in 12 man instances... Sure, thsoe things are part of it.. But it seems that they've more or less hit a wall as far as DPS goes.... And in very short order the same problems we see in the Shroud etc now, will manifest in more quests within more groups with less than ideal top gear and builds. They have no room to move things up, so they need to dial things back in the problem areas. This is likely also the reason some PrE's aren't out yet.... And it seems, to appease, they're also going to dial back general mob hit points to go along with some of this. Eladrin very rarely says things straightout... He beats around the bush a lot... You have to read what he says and then consider everything else he's said and piece it all together...


Now, it looks like what they already tried, which was clearly PARTIALLY implemented, didn't have the desired affect.. And of course the crybaby crowd of self-annointed know-it-alls came out and said it was a complete failure.. No... What it means is back to the drawing board and a new build which will likely come out at the end of this week or next week. But to say after one run inthe Shroud.. And perhaps a run or two somewhere else that it's a failure is stupid... I'm glad the people saying such thigns don't test anything else I have to use.. They suck at it It was couple runs and probably provided a bit of information..... But absolutely 0 conclusions...

This idea that it's that it's purely punitive, as well as all the mass hysteria, and gross exageration is pathetic to be honest. Sure;y, soem of the upcoming changes will be painful for some people.. And that sucks... But int he end.. It looks like they need to change a lot wiothin the combat systems, and it's likely goign to not onyl be to toons persay. But also on the back end, client, as well as possibly network adjustments.

Just because they aren't saying what they're doing doesn't mean they aren't doing other things... Heck, if I were Eladrin I wouldn't say **** on these forums the way he gets treated.... In fact I'd say some are lucky he's apperently not the vindictive type.... If it were me in his shoes........

There's been a few very knowledgable players that have thrown out some good ideas, and opinions, and some people who THINK they're all that and this... Who have simply thrown out a bunch of exagerated BS over and over and over and over... And then there' s a whole bunch of people jumping on the band wagon when they hear the propaganda of the few......

I predict major changes to the combat system, simply to allow the game to grow... I don't think that it's going to hurt any one class as much as peopel think, when all the changes are taken into account, over the next update or 2....

[Macushi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe7Kti6vPnM

Is this good now? IMO LAG looks even worse.
PLS stop this TWF MESS.

[Kalaxia]

Aspenor is right. Let this thread die. The Devs stopped paying attention after 1/2 way through page 1. This nerf is comming. There is absolutly nothing anyone can say or do to stop it. Yes, there are many many ways to fix the lag without this nerf but it's the nerf that they want. They couldn't give a rats behind about the lag or they would have addressed it a long time ago in a completely different way.

I don't know about Turbine, but many developers will often ask for feedback on major issues in a discussion thread, and then step back and let the players go back and forth without intervening, even tho they are still reading it. There are often less constructive posts between players when the devs keep sticking their noses in

Here let's see...

Hey Eladrin, you see this? Mic check 1 2 3. Is this thing on?

[auzrael]

My relatively insignificant feedback is based purely on the numbers.

Seems to me that this action, however good it may be at a programming level, is poor at the 'game' level - as it indeed reduces the long standing effectiveness of 2wf.

In my mind, GTWF should deliver the 100 pct dual wielding possibility. Tempest should then be delivering chances to double attack with the off hand in order to match the current '3rd hook' you can get, and 'speed replacement' double attacks should apply to both main and off hand.

Then you do not reduce your 2wf.

Of course - if the 'hidden' intention is to nerf 2wf to bring it back a little closer to 2hf, then so be it - but just come out and say that this is seen as a desirable design result. Players analyse stuff down to the millionth degree, so dont waste time and burn tempers 'hiding' a nerf/balance under an engine fix.