Combat Feedback for Update 5.

**Arctigis** · 06-07-2010, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by smatt

Well I thnk it's a rather narrow minded post based on an opinion that it's ven feasible to "FIX" the code or that the code was even poorly done at the time it was done. I've also come to form my own opinion that it's very liekly the changes being implemented are neccesary to some extent , because they've hit a wall as to how far they can go wit some of the game mechanics, and that has left them no way to expand the game moving forwrad.

You may be right but there is no more or less evidence to support this POV.

It's interesting in that you seem to have taken a different context out of Tasebro's post than I did. I interpreted
the root of Tasebro's dissatisfaction to acquiring shop content to facilitate the construction of a 'speed' build
(I'm assuming Tempest I + fighter speed boosts or similar here). The feeling is that these purchases (with real $$)
have been invalidated by these planned changes. I sympathise with this POV somewhat as, like I said, I just
finished a Monster build. To build an effective 'Monster classic', as a premium player, you'd need:

WF
Monk
32 point builds
+2 Dex for GTWF (assuming a starting Dex of 15)

That's a big outlay in real $$. Now, I'm not saying that this is a completely valid POV - you still have those
purchased items and they still have the same utility as they did when purchased. However, I think it's right
to expect some anger from players who purchased these items for a specific purpose which they now feel is
invalid.

**zealous** · 06-07-2010, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by tasebro

Well, zealous, here is some more irrelevant conjecture for you to dismiss:

Just want ya to take a breather and think about things objectively...

Originally Posted by tasebro

Specifically, my current main multiclass DPS toon can self-heal, as well as effectively tank AND deal adequate TWF DPS resulting from qualifying for warforged, kensei (unarmed) with monk sauce and a side of UMD (rogue).
Come nerfdate 5 (good one squelch) I am going to loose all the nice stacked speed boosts I now have access to (arrived at via multi-class build "speed" synergies, which ARE going away), and therefore a good chunk of practical DPS output potential (looks to me to be about 30-35% drop), therefore turning what is an effective sub-optimal "speed" build, into just another broken liability, therefore the bulk of that toons' current usefulness TO ME is going to vanish.

Ease off on the hyperbole, your build doesn't have ranger levels so will lose less than 10% dps. If you have monk levels for wind stance, the relative value of windstance will be greater come U5 than it is now. Haste boost is unchanged but with less haste stacking, relative gain is increased.

Originally Posted by tasebro

Furthermore, your dismissals miss the key point, I PAID for that specific utility on THAT toon, not for your sense of 'game balance', which is frankly neither needed, nor wanted

You paid for access to races/classes/modules in turbines game, subject to changes.
You still have access to those races/classes/modules in turbines game, subject to changes.

Originally Posted by tasebro

(...fact being I don't give a flip about 'game balance'; if i did, I would not invest my time building such toons, I would just play WoW now wouldn't I?).

This does indeed seem to be the problem. The point of game balance is that the game wouldn't be fun without it.

Originally Posted by tasebro

What I do want is the return on the resouces I invested in my toon--which I am currently getting--no more, no less. Since I am loosing all my stacked speed boosts, taking a significant hit on my DPS output with nothing to compensate that loss then that is not "game balance", its just a nerf that invalidates what is currently a viable build.

But thing is dude, viability is not based on how powerful the build is compared to the content, it's based on how powerful the build is compared to other builds.

How powerful builds are compared to the content is how difficult/easy the game is.
....

I don't know your exact class split so can't really evaluate how the change affects you, it's less then you think though.

Let's take a educated guess as to your split and try to make a some educating example of why nerfs are sometimes needed.

A.Let's say we add a class that's in every way like the fighter but gets +20damage attack per level and full divine and arcane spell casting, oh, and full bard songs, 20 skillpoints per level and access to all skills ofc. Taking 20 levels of that class would be better than any combination of 20 levels of other classes so taking levels of any other class would be pointless.
Due to there effectively over time, as people leveled the supah class, wouldn't be any other builds, there would be less variety in group compositions. There would be less variety in play and the game would likely become duller, less fun.

If we then "nerfed that class into oblivion" by halving the damage add, forcing you to choose between full divine or full arcane casting as well as halving skillpoints. That class would still be better than alternatives. It'd still be in need of massive nurfage.

B.
Hasteboost IV states that it adds 30% attack speed. Since attack speed increases in DDO decreases the time required for one animation you might think that the number of attacks would increase by 1/0.7-1~43% with haste boost IV going. You would be wrong though.

Each animation consists of "two parts" the animation itself and a static overhead, haste effects only increase the speed of the first part. This is made even more convoluted by different fighting styles having different overheads.

Thus the increase due to haste boost IV would be:

Code:

				Armed		Unarmed
Unhasted:			1,35		1,32
Hasted:				1,34		1,305
pre U5 madstoned:		1,336		1,30
pre U5 madstoned+windII:	1,33		1,296

Now one could certainly go on a nerd rage rampage about haste boost only giving about 90% of the boost it should. That would however be absolutely silly seeing as haste boost is massively overpowered (imo), incidently giving as much increase as the entire frenzied berserker prestige line (while boosted).

Now currently that's kinda ok since rogues/fighters are fairly balanced with other classes. However, the existance of haste boost severly limits the design space for interesting dps boosting feats and enhancements for fighters/rogues. e.g. rogue PrCs hardly add any dps at all, kensai don't provide much dps. It also skews multiclassing to preferentially include fighter/rogue levels since haste boost is aquired in early levels.

C. How your build is affected.
Your build is very likely buffed compared to other 2wf.
* You have haste boost, haste boots becomes relatively better in U5
* You have wind stance, double strike is relatively better than alacricity bonus
Assuming hasteboost IV+qd and windII:

Code:

Pre-U5 APS				Armed		Unarmed
unboosted hasted:			1.759		1.924
boosted hasted+windII:			2.150		2.406

unboosted madstone:			1.843		2.025		
boosted madstone+windII:		2.245		2.525	

unarmed boosted madstone+windII/armed unboosted hasted
2.406/1.759=1.368

unarmed boosted madstone+windII/armed unboosted madstone
2.525/1.843=1.370

---------------------------------------------------------------------	

U5 APS					Armed		Unarmed		
boost+windII+haste:			2.175		2.424		

unarmed boosted hasted+windII/armed unboosted hasted
2.424/1.759=1.378

Despite unarmed being more affected by the reduction to madstone haste effect, your build is very likely nerfed relatively less than others. Thus the viability of your build has likely increased.

Until they bring haste boost in line >;-)

tl;dr I don't quite get what you're griping about since your build likely got buffed

**zealous** · 06-07-2010, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon

Since Greater Two-Handed Fighting no longer does anything, I want 3 lvl20 respect shards for each of my THFers so that they can spend their 3 feats on something else.

The whole point of taking the Two-handed Fighting feat line was to eventually be able to get glancing blows while moving. Now, you can still take the Greater Two-Handed Fighting but it literally does nothing for your characters. (But we still have to fight moving targets... like kobolds, orges, and trolls, who I doubt have the same Glancing Blow nerf.)

It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

**BlackSteel** · 06-07-2010, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by zealous

It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

GTHF specifically states that it grants glancing blows on the move. Thats the entire point. For alot of people the chain is worthless until you pick this feat up. (not to mention glancing blows do petty damage up till that lvl range anyway)

3 shards dont really work out too well, as you cant pick up another chain with them b/c you have to remove them in order. a lesser wood would be more appropriate.

**Aesop** · 06-07-2010, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by zealous

It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

So if that's the problem... perhaps THF needs 2 "modes"

The First applies Glancing Blows and affects multiple mobs spreading the damage out doing more to more critters.

The Second focuses strongly on a single target. No Glancing Blows, but increased damage vs the single target. Would do less damage then the First would over all but the damage it does would be concentrated on the one opponent being a relative gain against the single target.

I know its unlikely to happen but that would be an interesting way to do it

Aesop

**Pyromaniac** · 06-07-2010, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jarlow

dont pee on me and say its raining just say they truth

They're saying its raining out...

**Logic** · 06-07-2010, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by BlackSteel

GTHF specifically states that it grants glancing blows on the move. Thats the entire point. For alot of people the chain is worthless until you pick this feat up. (not to mention glancing blows do petty damage up till that lvl range anyway)

This is absolutely what I was thinking. If the changes go live I will drop the entire THF chain on my character. Three feats that give no extra damage when moving... I don't understand it.

**Stonen** · 06-07-2010, 07:01 AM

It seems to me that the 5% double strike bonus for tempest III is too low. STWF now gives much more dps increase than this. Tempest III should give a significant bonus and be worth taking 6 more levels of ranger.

**Aesop** · 06-07-2010, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Stonen

It seems to me that the 5% double strike bonus for tempest III is too low. STWF now gives much more dps increase than this. Tempest III should give a significant bonus and be worth taking 6 more levels of ranger.

read back about 50 pages Eladrin stated that we convinced him tha tSTWF was a bad idea and it would go "live"...

Unless he changed his mind again

Though I think you may be right about TIII not being good enough

Aesop

**XenonTempest** · 06-07-2010, 07:26 AM

You guys know something?
You're all forgetting one, big, major issue when comparing the 4 different speed boosts.
They're all given out at DIFFERENT levels.

Sure, if fighter alacrity, paladin zeal, and monk grandmaster stance were all level 12, i'm fine and dandy...
BUT....

(Numbers are Mainhand/Offhand)
Tempest II - 100/100 - LEVEL 12(TWELVE)
Paladin Zeal - 110/80 - LEVEL 14(FOURTEEN)
Monk Grandmaster - 110/80 - LEVEL 18(EIGHTEEN)
Fighter Alacrity - 110/80 - LEVEL 20(TWENTY)

Someone notice the level differences yet? Hello?

If you're going for multiclassing, and still want to retain your mainclass's speedboost...
Levels capable of being splashed out - Tempest: 8, Paladin: 6, Monk: 2 (although most people go pure monk anyway), annnnnnd.... Fighter: 0. Zero. Naught.

Yeah i'm all fine and dandy with balance among the classes and whatnot, but...personally I feel fighter's getting the shaft.

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

**Visty** · 06-07-2010, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by XenonTempest

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

you mean just like it is now already?

**Aaxeyu** · 06-07-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by XenonTempest

Yeah i'm all fine and dandy with balance among the classes and whatnot, but...personally I feel fighter's getting the shaft.

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

Since the capstone is nerfed, multiclassing fighter is somewhat more viable than before. Only problem is that tempest I also have been nerfed.
It has made 18 fighter / 2 X builds more viable atleast.

**XenonTempest** · 06-07-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Visty

you mean just like it is now already?

Not really, there's still _some_ 18/2s out there

**XenonTempest** · 06-07-2010, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Aaxeyu

Since the capstone is nerfed, multiclassing fighter is somewhat more viable than before. Only problem is that tempest I also have been nerfed.
It has made 18 fighter / 2 X builds more viable atleast.

I don't know...you're still missing out on your 10% DoubleStrike compared to 18/2 paladins, monks, and tempests's 105/100

**Visty** · 06-07-2010, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by XenonTempest

Not really, there's still _some_ 18/2s out there

and there will be some in the future

**Aaxeyu** · 06-07-2010, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by XenonTempest

I don't know...you're still missing out on your 10% DoubleStrike compared to 18/2 paladins, monks, and tempests's 105/100

10% double strike is not that good.

Rangers were behind in DPS before the nerf, now they are just sad. They were hit hardess, by far.

**SquelchHU** · 06-07-2010, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Alhaz1970

Wait So are you saying that someone who wields a holy burst Great Axe and gets 2d6 holy and and 4d6 burst on a crit, is on a level playing field with someone wielding Khops who's getting 2d6 Holy in his main hand, 2d6 holy in his off hand, and 4d6 burst in his main and 4d6 burst in his off hand?

Or are you saying a 20th level Barb raged with 70 STR wielding a ESoS is outdoing a GS kopesh TWF? Because honestly I could give a rats behind about a small percentage comparison like that. The game can't be balanced for the minority. That's where other MMO's went wrong and why they have such a ridiculous never ending cycle of nerfs in those games.

Your original argument was that TWF and THF did the same DPS. That means that either they did so after counting abilities (and TWF needs kickers to keep up), they did so before counting abilities (and the kickers make it pull ahead) or you are wrong. Choose one.

Maybe I mis read it, but they mentioned that offhand special attacks will go to the next target in the Que and so they wont need to do a separate CD check if the primary target dies on the main hand... It's big thread so I may have misunderstood that part, or maybe it doesn't apply to assassinate. *shrug* I'm probably wrong here but whatever.

Part of their streamlining is that offhand attacks go towards the same target. At best it could mean a single target has to save twice, but that's still not a double assassinate.

Worked fine last time I used them... IMO Your definition of useless seems to be anything that isn't "uber" If I swing a good prefix weighted in one hand and a DPS weapon in the other am I not getting a tactical advantage that THF doesn't get (twice the possible weapon effects without switching weapons)?

When weighted was 5% chance of auto stun, it had a valid use that began and ended with epic (anywhere else, mob HP is too low to care).

Now it's a 3% chance to DC 33 save or stun. Which means it has a 5% of 3% chance of working. Yes, something that only has a 3:2,000 chance to do anything at all is indeed quite useless.

I'm going to assume you were not aware that weighted is now complete and utter garbage, and that you were not actually arguing that a 0.15% chance of relevance is a point in favor of anything at any time.

And who cares about lower levels right? In a game that is so clearly designed around 20th level content

I was actually being overly generous here.

Paralyzers are only good in Gianthold. In lower level areas you either can't use them at all, or the enemies actually have higher will saves due to not being grunt types. In higher level areas they'll save on a 2.

Even then, on higher difficulties of GH you'll encounter the same problem as you would on higher level quests.

So we're talking GH normal here... just attack them about 5 times, instead of greatly lowering your damage output to paralyze them. If you really must crowd control them then let a caster do it, or use stunning blow, or use trip. All of which will be more likely to land, particularly on higher difficulties where you might actually need it.

Been there, done that.

Got a pair of paralyzers for my Ranger way back when I was leveling her. It quickly became apparent I was better off just killing the **** mobs. Even in situations where crowd control would have actually been useful, the gimp DPS of paralyzers made it a bad idea anyways.

Got some for my Monk. Never used em. Even once. I was better off just killing the **** mobs, throwing the odd stun on casters.

I passed the paralyzers my Ranger was using to my Bard. I don't think he's ever put them on. DPS is better, and if I need crowd control Fascinate is better anyways.

In short, paralyzers = fail. But lower levels are the only place they can even try and be useful. Oh and did I mention Heroic Surge is in Nerfdate 5? Because it totally is.

As for stat damage, same logic as paralyzers except that the mob needs to have even higher HP to justify it... except that nearly every mob with enough HP to qualify is either immune/highly resistant to stat damage, or is NOT immune to something better... like instant death. Stat damagers were really only worthwhile during the WoP era.

3 feats... Being realistic most who are focusing on THF are taking the 3 THF feats, and the same can be said for most who focus on TWF taking the 3 TWF feats... Oversized being MAYBE one more feat burden for TWF if your build doesn't have enough STR to hit (or as I hear it needed in Epics). Sure a THF can take no feats and hit targets more with higher base damage than a TWF with no feats, but lets not pretend either style is LIKELY to skip the three feats.

Perhaps not before. Now when you can do about the same thing by skipping the feats and twitching? Might as well skip the THF feat line. Oversized is mandatory for Rangers (Tempest 3) but most others will likely skip it.

Not sure about 8 build points, I like having a reflex save though, so maybe that's just me... I have a Pali that's min maxed with Dex as a dump stat, and it's a THF build so I guess I have to agree it's between 6 (+2 tome) and 8... but that's a Pali which will end up with 16 base Charisma and a +6 item giving his reflex save a considerable boost... I wouldn't (personally) enjoy playing much of anything else with a dumped Dex.

It's the difference between 15 dex and a +2 tome and 8 dex and a +2 tome. +3 Reflex saves. That's it. One thing characters do not have trouble getting up to par is their saving throws.

Oh BTW you never answered why you have your MyDDO set to private when you were here giving Calebro grief for the same thing?

...

1: That was done with over 50 pages ago. Get with the program.
2: You never mentioned it until now, or if you did I didn't see it.
3: Calebro was questioned about MYDDO because it was clear from the way he was talking he had no idea what he was talking about and MYDDO would prove that he did in fact have one or more TWF characters. (and contrary to what some whiners said, the point wasn't to point and laugh at his characters but simply to prove they existed) As I am not talking in such a way that suggests a lack of experience with dual wielding, your argument is invalid. As for who I am, most of the good players of Argo know, or can find out easily. I don't really care if you know or not. Have fun stalking me I guess.

But I'm not feeding the trolls about that.

Originally Posted by Grimtooth333

Except those 3 feats are not required for the two weapon fighting line or for a TWF Ranger, those feats are only required for the Tempest PRC and they really have nothing to do with the points I was making.

Bottom line is regardless of how you acquire them the TWF line needs to be even across the board... and 40/60/80 offhand is a joke. Something like 60/80/100 for offhand chance is fairer to all classes here, Rangers as well.

There are TWF Rangers that aren't Tempests?

...Yes I know there will be post Nerfdate 5, when Tempest no longer justifies its cost. But I mean in the present tense everyone loses 3 feats.

**Ebondevil** · 06-07-2010, 10:00 AM