Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Aspenor]

i wonder how many of those *****ing that twf is dead now havent read the thread where its proven that twf still rules everything

probably a lot of them. oh, and quoted for emphasis

[cracken999]

Sorry for some crappy english, its early and im a lil bit upset reading all these changes after 3 weeks being off DDO.

Well i agree with the lag problem and that its reasons are in the mechanics of the fast hits in a short time. So basically to slow the attacks down and make them more powerful therefore sounds pretty intelligent.

Nontheless i got major doubts about the offhand-proccs. Atm im on my 3rd life and going for a 18 paladin kotc III 2 rogue build, pure dps, TWF. I will have Zeal, so i'll have a chance to get 1 doublestrike out of 10 mainhandattacks. Got that. But after thinking bout it i feel like i am making a little gimp.

So calculating my attacks that means before update 5 i have 8 100% (not talking bout to-hit) attacks in a chain. (with GTWF Main Off / Main Off / Main Off / Main Off). So after 5 chains i'll have attacked 40 times for sure. If the to-hit is high enough 38 of these 40 attacks will succeed while two will be a 1 and fail. Lets say 1 fail is main, 1 is off.

For easy calculations the dmg of the main is 10, off is 5. So its a 190 dmg mainhand, 95 Dmg offhand, means 285 over the whole chain.

After Update 5, correct me if im wrong, ill have 22 attacks on my main, 2 of these are doublestrikes duo Zeal, and 55% chance of my offhand attack to procc, which means it will be 11 out of 20. And again, 2 misses.

According to the last calculation, again the dps:

21 main x 10 dmg = 210 dmg.
10 off x 5 dmg = 50 dmg.
overall: 260.

so we are missing 25 dmg, means almost a loss of 10% dps. not including missing smites for a failed offhand attack and the mostly almost equal dmg of main/offhand. Maybe a bit noobish calculation but thats it how i understand the changes. And im feeling upset when im thinking about my dps-toon that will be a total nerd when i finally capped her...cause she will barely hit every 2nd time attacking with her offhand...as a double TR...with a greensteel tier III khopesh in that offhand that costed me lots of time to make....

Am i getting it totally wrong or are u nerfing the melee attacks, especially the TWF non-ranger-classes and strengthening the AAs with that even more? Is there any nerf of the raidboss-hp so it won't take us 10% longer (and maybe 10% more store-potts....) to get em down?

[knightgf]

Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balance.

Depends on the situation.

So instead of saying this is a terrible idea, suck it up and deal. Start telling the dev's what you think it should be changed to instead, because they have already changed things around since the start of the thread, so why not offer suggestions instead of just blindly saying the sky is falling and you have to stop it.

So...you mean to tell me that someone who is clearly opposed to this update should give suggestions to improve it instead of standing next to their opposition and defending their viewpoint?

What a odd group of people...

I really don't know if update 5 is worth it...I really don't. Yeah, its nice to have guild airships and new guild features and fixes and stuff, but this...I don't know. A lot of players are upset, as you can see in this thread.

[Aspenor]

Depends on the situation.



So...you mean to tell me that someone who is clearly opposed to this update should give suggestions to improve it instead of standing next to their opposition and defending their viewpoint?

What a odd group of people...

I really don't know if update 5 is worth it...I really don't. Yeah, its nice to have guild airships and new guild features and fixes and stuff, but this...I don't know. A lot of players are upset, as you can see in this thread.

Just displaying how upset you are without giving suggestions for improvement will result in your sentiments being ignored. It's abundantly clear that these things are here to stay, and no amount of whining will change that.

[tasebro]

Just wow, talk about some QQ...It is a little slower...Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balane....suck it up and deal.

Thing is that your "a little slower" nerf intentionally kills the viability of multi class speed builds that rely on every available speed advantage to be viable (but still decidedly sub-optimal). So speed builds are going to lose the bulk of useful DPS and have nothing to show for the player investment put into carefully constructing now-invalidated toons. I remind you that speed builds only come at great opportunity cost to build, to achieve a workable, competitive edge that is now thoroughly blunted.
I am not interested in funding that particular mediocrity; and I am now understandably reluctant to invest MORE resources into another custom build only to see it nerfed too--and for the same lame (non)reasons speed builds are being nerfed now.
This U5 nerf of TWF in general and speed builds in particular is antithetical to a fundamental principle in DnD, so its NOT "balance"--what it is, is an arbitrary flub that happens to be the most convenient, cheap way to divert resources around some bad code that would be unpleasantly expensive to repair. The real problem here is NOT speed builds, its the bad code issues execs have clearly elected not to repair in favor of a cheaper band-aid solution.

Start telling the dev's...[snip blah blah blah]

The money I have spent on my speed builds speaks louder than your useless admonishment/chastisement to presume to tell the devs that which they already know--at least I have the integrity to back up my interests with my cash purchases...and also not to reward negative performance with even MORE positive reward, and to make sure the word gets out.

Just displaying how upset you are without giving suggestions for improvement will result in your sentiments being ignored. It's abundantly clear that these things are here to stay, and no amount of whining will change that.

How fortunate are the ignorant, for ignorance truly is bliss...and as a dog to his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly.

When a DnD GM repeatedly pulls the rug out from under the very talent he is supposedly trying to attract, that talent will find something else to do with their time (and money).

[Inkblack]

From what I am gathering on the new mechanics, with the physics check only happening on the main hand, would a kill strike on first swing null the proc and double attack with the target gone?

The off hand wouldn't have a target since the physics was done on the first swing the proc wouldn't have a target?

Does the double attack have its own new physics check and is there a proc attached to it?

I think that was talked about somewhere in this thread, but of course it is buried in all of the replies. Basically the physics check finds all available targets, so the second hand attack would just move to the next legitimate target. Sorry I can't provide a link 'cause I'm lazy.

[Bengalih]

This will be my last post.

It is my belief that the DEVS intended to deceive the players to begin with. I believe that this has all been a pony show to a nerf they were going force on us anyways.

Thanks for finding this Ollathir it answers some of our questions.

With that said I cannot give my money to people who think so little of their customer base that they feel they must mislead them.

Thanks and Goodbye.

While I will not end my posting, or my playing over these fixes, I must say I agree with Necron.

/rant on

I work in IT, have worked with very intensive database application doing many many computations/second, and I absolutely don't believe that these lag issues exist due to the twf computations that are currently being used. If this is truly the issue, then I ask Turbine to post their server specs as well as the computations they are using to determine that this lag is due to (and will diminish by) the twf changes. (BTW - I know that will never happen).

In addition, as I'm sure this has been said before... you claim more lag due to increased twf rolls? Guess what, that's because you have a larger player base (and yes, more money - even with F2P). Any company that brings in more customers and thus more transactions have greater loads on their equipment. Guess what? The solution isn't to drastically change the experience of a large portion of the customer base. The solution is to upgrade the equipment.

I hate to call conspiracy, but I think that the devs intend(ed) to implement this major change to the combat system for one of two reasons:

1) It is necessary for additional future changes that they have planned. (as Necron suggests)
2) It is just another attempt to totally throw off the balance of the system so that addicted DDO players will have to rebuild all of their toons, thus making them invest more in the game.

While I believe that #1 is probably the case here, #2 is also totally viable. While I believe that some of the spirit of #2 can introduce diversity, I believe this tactic has been overly abused by Turbine to stimulate "need" and keep players playing to regrind to adjust to these "virtual" changes.

I also am not putting it past them that they may have been introducing some of this lag artificially to push this change.

How long have we had all of these twf builds? A long g-d **** time. How long has this new breed of lag been around? Ask anyone running Shroud this week - lag has never been like this before.

I just wish they showed more respect to the player community, because even if this isn't a total hose job - they aren't giving the full facts. All these changes will not change the calculations in any meaningful way, they will just re-arrange them to other mechanics. Be honest about what you are doing, and if you are being honest, there is no reason not to divulge the facts (in this case, the actual server calculations).

/rant off (Although not really, since I'm not really mad, or frustrated, because perhaps this is what we've come to expect.)

I will take this in stride, and continue to play my characters because i like them, even though they may not be optimized for Turbine's latest flavor of the month.

I suppose that it is, in the end, just a game...

[Bluenoser]

I've already registered my principled objections to these changes, and won't rehash that here. I have some technical questions about the way these changes operate (apologies if this has already been answered, but I don't have time to scan through over 3400 posts - if you've already answered this, or if someone else has seen the answer, please feel free to reply to me directly - thanks.)

1) Does the new system mean that the attack bonuses attached to the off-hand weapon itself are irrelevant? For example, if I'm using a +2 rapier in my main hand, but I've got a nice +4 shortsword in the other, is my % to hit with the off-hand is simply a % function based on the +2 main weapon attack roll? (before someone laughs at the example, please remember that many players will be using just such weapons for a LONG time as they level up.)

2) What are the implications of this for critical hits with the off-hand weapon? Are they still possible? If so, how, since the entire crit system is based on the weapon's initial attack roll ("19 or 20", etc), which no longer occurs for the off-hand? Will all crit hits be based on the main hand weapon, such that a better crit range on the off-hand (say, a scimitar off-hand and a long-sword main hand) is now lost? Is a crit hit on the main hand automatically reproduced with the off-hand if the basic "to hit" proc roll succeeds? (If not, this is a very major nerf, with a very minimal decrease in the calculations required in each attack - inconceivable that this could prevent much lag.)

3) What are the implications for attacks against incorporeal, blurred or displaced opponents, all of which have as their defense an automatic % "miss" rate? Does this mean that an off-hand attack against an incorporeal (without Ghost touch weapon) will be, for example % proc rate X .5 auto-miss rate on main. For someone with ITWF, then, who procs off-hand attacks at 60%, the off-hand would hit only .6 x .5 = .3 or 30% of the time, down from, basically, 50%. (Again, that's a pretty steep nerf from getting two separate attacks each of which have only a 50% miss rate.)

Thanks in advance.

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack. ...

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats grants a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.

[Stonz]

This is nothing more than a huge shameless nerf to TWF fighters and pallies.

You guys have gotten a few hundred bucks from me over the last 6 months and the joke is on me for it. I put so many hours into building up my TWF kensai fighter and his tomes and gear and he is the only character that I play so I guess you could say I put all my eggs in one basket, but I have left 2 other games over the years for big nerfs like this, which I call changing the rules halfway through, and I am sure other game developers will appreciate my business.

Don't expect to make a big change like this to a game that has been out for 3 years and not lose a chunk of your playerbase for it. And you know that... which is why it is so obvious that the whole point of this is to nerf the TWF fighters and pallies rather than this fix dps lag song and dance. I don't like seeing "miss" while I am fighting in the first place, and I am an obsessive min/max type gamer. Now you want to cut my off-hand swings in half? No, I don't think so.

Anyway, if you go ahead with the nerf, you will lose my business over it.

[Gnash]

I think that was talked about somewhere in this thread, but of course it is buried in all of the replies. Basically the physics check finds all available targets, so the second hand attack would just move to the next legitimate target. Sorry I can't provide a link 'cause I'm lazy.

thx brother

[tolana]

after logging on to lama and running my twf finesse 18rogue/2ftr this is what i think. my offhand gs lit2 or rad2 almost never goes off now so it will be totally worthless to grind for a gs item for you offhand. it was like putting a +1 weapon in the slot minus sa damage. i only saw what i think was a double strike once in two hours of pretty steady play. this was not a minor change in my dps this was total devastation of my off hand. i will check it out quite a bit more but if it stays like it is... i don't even know what to say... other than please don't implement any of these changes.

[Gnash]

I missed whether it was established that all attacks are now based on main hand....

or does off-hand proc cause seperate roll without physics check?

[Natashaelle]

I missed whether it was established that all attacks are now based on main hand....

or does off-hand proc cause seperate roll without physics check?

physics check looks for all available targets before signing off, although the auto-targetting will mean that off-hand attack will be made against the same one as primary ; but according to eladrin, if the first target dies, off-hand attacks should be made against a different target (I paraphrase).

[Grimtooth333]

My feedback is this change is unacceptable... period.

Honestly, if I spend 3 feats on my fighter/pally/bard/whatever for the TWF line then I better be getting the same 100% chance for an offhand hit that a Ranger Tempest 3 does, Rangers don't even have to meet the requirements as they are class feats for them, the rest do.

This is a very skewed nerf that damages the viability of peoples chars, to add insult to injury here you don't have a complete way for everyone to adjust to it... in any case you should have implemented the ways to adapt to this in the game BEFORE playing with this. What am I talking about? I can name 2 off the top of my head that are vital for this; Lesser HOW available in game for a small amount of plat (like swapping a high level Sorc/Fs/Bard spell) or a free one to ALL chars after a change to the game like this, and some form of Greensteel deconstruction (with a nerf you have to also have no ingred/shard/en cell losses to do so.)

Turbine is fail/fail/fail here on all counts.

Yes by all means drop the overhead, but don't make changes we can't completely adjust to.

Or you can do as we know you SHOULD do here, get more processing power, or design/nerf end game quests that aren't sporting mobs with a zillion HP to take down, it is those mobs that are the cause of the heavier draws on your processing power, more HP = more swings = more checks.

[Arctigis]

Thing is that your "a little slower" nerf intentionally kills the viability of multi class speed builds that rely on every available speed advantage to be viable (but still decidedly sub-optimal). So speed builds are going to lose the bulk of useful DPS and have nothing to show for the player investment put into carefully constructing now-invalidated toons. I remind you that speed builds only come at great opportunity cost to build, to achieve a workable, competitive edge that is now thoroughly blunted.
I am not interested in funding that particular mediocrity; and I am now understandably reluctant to invest MORE resources into another custom build only to see it nerfed too--and for the same lame (non)reasons speed builds are being nerfed now.
This U5 nerf of TWF in general and speed builds in particular is antithetical to a fundamental principle in DnD, so its NOT "balance"--what it is, is an arbitrary flub that happens to be the most convenient, cheap way to divert resources around some bad code that would be unpleasantly expensive to repair. The real problem here is NOT speed builds, its the bad code issues execs have clearly elected not to repair in favor of a cheaper band-aid solution.



The money I have spent on my speed builds speaks louder than your useless admonishment/chastisement to presume to tell the devs that which they already know--at least I have the integrity to back up my interests with my cash purchases...and also not to reward negative performance with even MORE positive reward, and to make sure the word gets out.


How fortunate are the ignorant, for ignorance truly is bliss...and as a dog to his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly.

When a DnD GM repeatedly pulls the rug out from under the very talent he is supposedly trying to attract, that talent will find something else to do with their time (and money).

Great post mate!

I'd rep you but I need to 'spread around..'

[smatt]

Great post mate!

I'd rep you but I need to 'spread around..'

I disagree the post you quoted is a perfect example of somebody that's got the entire thing wrong. Very simply put, very short sighted, and self absorbed. But it's cool he can have his opinion as can you.

[sirironheart]

Is it possiable to drop out 50% of the special effects you see on screen...sprites etc. I found in other games this helped alot to cut lag due to server load. Not sure how your engine is set up. This would avoid having to nerf anything except the eye candy.

[SquelchHU]

Honestly, if I spend 3 feats on my fighter/pally/bard/whatever for the TWF line then I better be getting the same 100% chance for an offhand hit that a Ranger Tempest 3 does, Rangers don't even have to meet the requirements as they are class feats for them, the rest do.

False. Both Rangers and non Rangers are down three feats... yes they get the TWF line for free, but since they have to take Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack they really aren't any better off.

Actually Rangers are worse off because Tempest 3 requires a fourth feat.

[tasebro]

I disagree the post you quoted is a perfect example of somebody that's got the entire thing wrong. Very simply put, very short sighted, and self absorbed. But it's cool he can have his opinion as can you.

Very well smatt, since in your estimation I am the one here "that's got the entire thing wrong", then I would very much like to hear your sage wisdom as to what is "right".
As they say in Missouri, "Show Me"....

[tolana]

probably a lot of them. oh, and quoted for emphasis

maybe you should go to lama and check it out yourself instead of reading what someone posted. i went to lama and the changes absolutely kill my dps on my twf finesse 18rogue/2fighter. i dont care what the thread said cuz in actuality it is a drastic change and not for the better. maybe your ranger is just fine but there are builds out there that are totally ruined with the changes.