Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Ollathir]

So, I'm somewhat confused. Instead of actually addressing the problem of whatever it is that causes DPS to lag things, DPS is simply going to be lowered to solve the problem?

I'm a relatively new player. I played a little in Beta and didn't like it. I recently returned and I quite enjoy it. The only thing I've disliked so far is that there are so few builds that qualify as "end-game contributors". I hate feeling like I have to drop cash for 32 point builds and make a Khopesh wielding Kensei fighter or a THF Barb to be considered DPS. I play a Monk and while I know my DPS isn't amazing, nor will I ever be in high demand end game, I enjoy playing it.

Nerfing TWF will take an already relatively weak character and make him weaker, and it will force even more people to create one of the (now fewer) sustainable DPS class/feat combinations. This adjustment may solve some problems at the very highest echelon of your player base, but the casual or new player is going to have an even harder time.

It was decided by the developers of the game that TWF was extremely overpowered. This plays well because the pysics check, made .15 sec after the main hand of a TWF supposedly is responsible for a some of the lag. By removing the opportunity to use your offhand with a % based system vs a static number of times, you will generally get fewer chances to use your off-hand, lowering effectiveness of TWF. The removal of the second physics check was to address some but not all issues of lag.

This effects quite a few people across the board. Both new and those that have played for several years equiping and building characters based on the in game mechanics.

The only thing I can suggest is if you can access Lamania, do it. Review the combat situation and feel of gameplay. And post your findings here.

[SkyCry]

So how about not removing glancing blows from THF on the move, but make Spring Attack feat a condition for them?

Also if moving while attacking would not simply give -4 to hit, but was the effective -4 BAB (which would decrease attack speed with the new BAB implementation), then this would also decrease twitch combat. Those who really like twitch combat can invest in the feats and hence the DPS increase from twitch combat would costs something.

[jeremyt]

If speed of attacks is a problem, how about this instead.

1. leave speed mechanics exactly how it is now
2. slow down all melee by 20%
3. reduce mob hp by 20% to compensate

A side effect, spell damage will be more effective but meh. This is fair to all builds, twf, thf, monks, ranger splashed, and everything.

I agree 100% here. The various stages of regaining dps for very particular builds (the fighter capstone, paladin zeal, tempest III, monk wind stance IV) set new benchmarks in the structure of character building that absolutely change the character creation dynamic people have grown to love and invested so much time and REAL MONEY into.

Lets see, my 13 rogue 7 monk WF staff wielder..goes from suboptimal fun flavor build to straight unuseful piker. I spent 25$ real money on a +2 supreme tome for him. I bought monk and WF to create him. I spent many many hours gathering gear for him.

My next favorite toon is WF 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue unarmed. Much the same as above, bought him a +2 everything tome, he also needed WF and monk to exist. These cost me REAL MONEY. I was purchasing these items to play a game system that I anticipated being static and worth investing my REAL MONEY and TIME into. So now that I have a monk that is unable to get later wind stances, my toon i am very proud of and play happily is junk?

I repeat, do not change the d&d character creation system. I am one of those new folks who came round after you went f2p and became the hallmark of your massive cash infusion to the tune of 200+ dollars. I vote no, not just no, but HELL no. I have THFs currently and feel their utility is subpar to TRed folks running dual greensteels at 12..and have yet to taste the glory of epic sos..but i feel the system is currently at a state where small tweaks to existing ENHANCEMENTS and ITEMS will completely balance the system. Nerf epic SoS a bit (and madstone for that matter), create some viable epic TWF options and secondary THF options. And for god sakes, help bring monk balance UP to par and realize this code proposal has such far reaching build killing affects it WILL drive away players.

Will i leave if all the sudden my suboptimal toons become absolutely worthless? I wouldnt be happy. Also, I have read multiple posts calling for LRs (I believe should include tome reimbs), greensteel deconstructs or anything else to mitigate the time and MONEY invested into making toons in the old system work with the new system. WHY? at least field a single response to this very very VERY VERY VERY real concern. your changing the rules, and throwing many people's money and time out the window. If your not offering tools to adapt the old player base to a BRAND NEW SYSTEM, I will leave. I simply cannot afford to spend that much money to see it ****ed on and ignored. Why would I spend more money if you get to change the rules again without following d&d rules or keeping current builds 100% viable.

[Dim_Mak]

I agree 100% here. The various stages of regaining dps for very particular builds (the fighter capstone, paladin zeal, tempest III, monk wind stance IV) set new benchmarks in the structure of character building that absolutely change the character creation dynamic people have grown to love and invested so much time and REAL MONEY into.

Lets see, my 13 rogue 7 monk WF staff wielder..goes from suboptimal fun flavor build to straight unuseful piker. I spent 25$ real money on a +2 supreme tome for him. I bought monk and WF to create him. I spent many many hours gathering gear for him.

My next favorite toon is WF 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue unarmed. Much the same as above, bought him a +2 everything tome, he also needed WF and monk to exist. These cost me REAL MONEY. I was purchasing these items to play a game system that I anticipated being static and worth investing my REAL MONEY and TIME into. So now that I have a monk that is unable to get later wind stances, my toon i am very proud of and play happily is junk?

I repeat, do not change the d&d character creation system. I am one of those new folks who came round after you went f2p and became the hallmark of your massive cash infusion to the tune of 200+ dollars. I vote no, not just no, but HELL no. I have THFs currently and feel their utility is subpar to TRed folks running dual greensteels at 12..and have yet to taste the glory of epic sos..but i feel the system is currently at a state where small tweaks to existing ENHANCEMENTS and ITEMS will completely balance the system. Nerf epic SoS a bit (and madstone for that matter), create some viable epic TWF options and secondary THF options. And for god sakes, help bring monk balance UP to par and realize this code proposal has such far reaching build killing affects it WILL drive away players.

Will i leave if all the sudden my suboptimal toons become absolutely worthless? I wouldnt be happy. Also, I have read multiple posts calling for LRs (I believe should include tome reimbs), greensteel deconstructs or anything else to mitigate the time and MONEY invested into making toons in the old system work with the new system. WHY? at least field a single response to this very very VERY VERY VERY real concern. your changing the rules, and throwing many people's money and time out the window. If your not offering tools to adapt the old player base to a BRAND NEW SYSTEM, I will leave. I simply cannot afford to spend that much money to see it ****ed on and ignored. Why would I spend more money if you get to change the rules again without following d&d rules or keeping current builds 100% viable.

+1
Couldn't agree more.
This i just making me cancel.

[tasebro]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks

...and the problem with that, Eladrin, is that many of us are pay-as-you-go players; as such, we pay real US dollars in exchange for specific account in-game benefits/tools manifested via our toon builds; most of said benefits can only be manifested via our toons and in no other way...and being gamers, many of us us choose to invest our resources building optimized toons in order to interact with things in general the way we prefer to , and get the most out of some aspect/feature that we can, in particular by applying those limited resources available in the most advantageous way we can find, given the constraints of the DnD ruleset as adapted. We also then invest real time within the system in developing these raw builds into viable constructs in the pursuit to fullfill as much of the given potential as we can. The devs apparently see the result of TWF (et. al.) as "overpowered", and have moved to thwart our in-game efforts pursuant to same. Thing is, I paid you guys real dollars for specific in-game benefits which you are now arbitrarily degrading (namely: attack speed, and the bonuses to hard stats to that back it up). That means I suffer a significant loss, with no benefit to offset it. That is an inequitable action at best, and fraudulent at worst. The real consequence of that action, and the resulting loss, is all sense of ownership and interactive control over in-game character development and functionality is destroyed for me, the player. The clear indication on your part is that any in-game investment (such as TWF speed boosts) delivering a return that is considered "too good" will be punished with degradation. That is NOT what i paid you guys for here. I gave you guys money with an expectation of actually being able to employ some specific in-game benefit/functionality that is now going away.

I am not alone here in saying that, from your numbers, it is clear this TWF nerf will for sure kill the viability (albeit 'sub-optimal' as it now is) of one of my rather likeable custom builds, and I think it clear that the devs are aware of this, and intent on doing it regardless of the forseeable negative consequences; my favorite custom toon is a very tight TWF build as it is (yet consistent, effective, and fun), and it simply cannot survive the degredation this nerf will force, and there is no way to modify it now "to do something else".
All the money and time I invested in that build will be rendered worthless as of next update.
You are breaking my toon, so what do I get out of this? Do I get compensated for my money and time that is soon-to-be rendered useless?
This latest update 5 nerfing of TWF will screw up my basic interface with how my custom toon works in the game--specifically, my mouse click sends my "request" for the two dice roll checks I am rightly due (one roll right side, the other roll left side)--backed up by that +2 stat tome and feat/skill bonuses I bought--and with this nerf, you guys are taking the dice out of my hands, which disenfranchises me playing my toon, so therefore disenfranchises me playing this game to near full potential; and so therefore decreases the fun factor significantly (by 50 per cent of my dice rolls to be exact, not even counting the loss of the ability to attack two separate targets simultaneously, nor the nerfed secondary attacks, which apparently will start at -5%, -15% effectiveness for the very BEST possible case and rapidly drop from there to "negligible" for the rest of us).
Why should I bother building a custom toon at all? Ergo, why should I send you guys any MORE of my money pursuant to that end, or even refer new players with similar interests in tinkering with builds (instead of warning them off)?

So I ask the question, how exactly does this serve me, the player? How does your breaking my favorite toon fix the problem at hand? Do you have enough of my money and dont need any more? Cuz it looks like that is where we are going here.

There is always an opportunity cost with every decision. The cost on this one is too big, and the benefit highly questionable. You guys need to rethink the consequences of your actions before the damage is done. Don't become another blizzard, inc.
Do not make the mistake of underestimating the negative effect the decision to implement this nerf will have on player interest; I suspect a good portion of devoted, quality players will see it the same way as I do, and I think its pretty clear now that Turbine seriously undervalues player interest manifested in "sense of ownership".

This nerf is exactly the same as a tabletop DnD game master declaring: "...well yes, your PC with TWF should indeed get two dice rolls, but I am only going to let you roll one, then I will TELL you what the second result is, because I am too busy to deal with your 2 dice rolls, so you shall only get just one roll at the same time as everyone else with no speed bonus...".
That is not acceptable, and neither is this TWF nerf.
There is a simple premise here you guys are missing: LET THE DICE DECIDE. Dont take take the dice out of my hands and decide the issue for me--if i was into that sort of cheap "game balance", then I would be playing World Of Warcraft etc, rather than DDO (and I would not build toons to optimize TWF, now would I?). You guys have to be better than that.

You say your 'solution' to DPS lag problem must involve gimping our DPS, and that is not acceptable, nor I suspect even truly necessary, merely convenient.
I have no doubt you guys have other several other options available to address DPS lag problems that do not involve taking away my earned right to throw two dice
at a target in game, nor obviating my having the diligence in choice of build options.

In the meantime consider this: if you guys are admitting that you are not going to devote sufficient resources to handle the existing TWF DPS lag problem, and so nerfing TWF is the "appropriate" action to make, then in good faith you MUST at least compromise in good faith, and give all of us who have up to now invested in TWF specs a BETTER "deal" than we currently have pre-update5, NOT worse, otherwise you are just gimping our toons for the sake of your own convenience.
The point is though that I do NOT want a "better deal" here--what I do want is a fair chance to roll my 2 dice--and JUST my 2 dice--as fast as I can as allowed by the rules as advertised, that's all. If you cant give me that, then give me the best you have to give me, but for dang sure don't arbitrarily gimp my multi-classed two weapon fighter speced toon, and tell me "its for game balance" cuz if i wanted cheap "game balance" I would play wow, now wouldn't I?.

Sorry for the over-long post. Hope this helps.

[Aesop]

+1
Couldn't agree more.
This i just making me cancel.

do you realized that you just agreed to 20% slower melee combat?

[ShortRanger]

My toons are being built to be soloists, vaiations on Tempest Ranger. My game play style is primarily solo with an occasional duo or triplet thrown in.

I do not do raids.
I do not do large groups.

I have yet to experience this DPS lag through level 10 and could care less if you fix it or not.

With pushing 200 pages and over 3000 responses I am unwilling to read I would like to know:

How are the proposed changes going to affect my game experience?

[BlackSteel]

I dont agree with any of the changes, but its kinda funny seeing all the huff n puff about how rangers will recieve about 17-20% net loss in DPS. With several other classes falling shortly behind them. all the hub bub about the SoS.

But dont think I've seen anyone mention how that stacks up for a barbarian after the next patch. Consider an end game geared Barb

loses ~30% from eSoS nerf
loses 10% capstone (bugged so no real complaint here)
loses glancing blows 10-15%(depending on weapon/monster fort)
madstone nerf 10%

DPS post patch will drop roughly 60%. granted any THF melee can expect a high loss as well. fighter's % lost from glancing will be smaller, while pure pally's will be slightly higher.

well I guess congratulations are in order, TWF even with the nerf should be considerable more damage than THF'ers now. Even funnier is hearing everyone complain about how fast an eSoS takes down stunned trash mobs, last I checked dual greensteel picks do the job even faster. Or god forbid a TWF pally smiting with picks.

[Bluenoser]

Sorry for the rude tone, but this change really is b.s., and is pretty clearly about more than fixing lag. All of the "pro" responses crying about the current gap in DPS between TWF and THF are conveniently ignoring (as others have already noted) that THF have the edge against multiple targets - a pretty **** big advantage in this game. An end-game TWF build is geared toward putting a single opponent down faster - a different melee philosophy, pure and simple (and one that isn't offset by the Whirlwind feat - too slow, too many prereqs required), and one that requires higher DPS for TWF to be viable. TWFs take a HUGE investment in feats, stats and enhancements, and this should be rewarded in some pretty spectacular melee performance. Gimping TWF at this point is not simply totally unfair to existing toons, it's an unnecessary narrowing of playing styles (the current gimping of highly mobile dex-based fighters is bad enough).

I haven't been able to read all 160+ posts on this, but from what I've even read so far, there are some very good alternative suggestions for easing the calculations on TWF that are supposedly contributing to lag. Please try something less drastic before taking a scorched-earth policy towards TWFs.

<please note - while I do have a TWF toon, I also play a THF and spellcasters. I like variety, and the current ability to do so is one of DDO's great strengths. Don't lose it!>

[Aesop]

My toons are being built to be soloists, vaiations on Tempest Ranger. My game play style is primarily solo with an occasional duo or triplet thrown in.

I do not do raids.
I do not do large groups.

I have yet to experience this DPS lag through level 10 and could care less if you fix it or not.

With pushing 200 pages and over 3000 responses I am unwilling to read I would like to know:

How are the proposed changes going to affect my game experience?

You lose a bit of DPS due to fewer attacks on average.

TWF is still pretty much top tier, but the tier has been lowered a touch.

Hopefully if this is going to overtly effect quests (likely epic) then I hope they reduce the HP of those critters slightly.

I believe someone put the number that rangers lose around 17%... though I'm not sure what that is based upon.

This mod will be nerfing a large portion of builds, but I don't believe this is going to invalidate any of them... its fairly universally lowering things

Aesop

[Dentali]

I've always found it interesting why Blizzard has the most successful game around, even though the actual gameplay is not very challenging and rather dry for item customization, but the reasons are fairly clear with Turbine's mishap here. Blizzard advertises their game. They also cater to many different ages of player. They have a set class list that is fairly balanced; you don't have the option of making a warlock warrior or anything like that. Set classes make games easier to edit, by far. With this update we see a classic example of a gaming company not knowing how to run their game at all.

We've already watched one or two other games get annihilated because of financial mishaps or poor development in the past few months, which I'd hoped would've been a lesson to Turbine to lay low for a while. Instead, they come out with bold changes like this for a select few players who are complaining over lag and decide to just nerf dps as a whole, as well as the most favored style of combat in ANY game in history.

Think about it: players play classes that dual wield most often in any game they play. EQ1, what classes were the most used? Warriors, Rangers, Monks, and Beastlords. All of those classes could dual wield. Dual-wielding is just the most fun gaming style for a lot of people in games that offer a lot of classes that can do it. Now, what do we see in DDO? Dual wielding as the most chosen fighting style BY FAR. This is simply a trend that players choose because it is the most fun for them, not because they do the most dps. Some people pick them because they do heavy dps, but a vast majority of players play dual-wielders because it's more fun. So, what does nerfing the most desired playstyle to the point where they require 4 feats to do any sort of decent damage do? It kills desire for people to give money up to a company that can't even realize what people like to play best. Nerfing players in any sort of game that has multi-classing in any way is about the WORST business move a gaming company could ever possibly make. All you've done is taken people like jeremyt's (and there are MANY who play classes which can dual wield but are not insane dps) characters and made them useless.

I don't know about anyone else, but the way I know it is when a product is advertised a certain way and promised, and someone pays for that product and gets something completely different or of much lesser value, that is considered fraud. Turbine, in this instance, has pretty much sucked up all the money a good majority of their paying playerbase that use TWF and pocketed it, then decided to alienate all those customers that gave them what they wanted.

This nerf doesn't just affect only TWFers or THFers either, it affects everyone. Less DPS = more healer mana wasted, probably 2.5x as much as before because they have to heal THF Barbs, casters have to waste more mana because fights last longer, everyone in general will be unhappy because things take more time. More time = less room for things to be casual, less room for things to be casual = more casual players quitting, even if they hadn't already for serious nerfs to some of their characters. This move isn't only bad for Turbine's name as a game producing company, it's also a bad financial move.

The most laughable of all, they made a thread asking for feedback and simply stopped replying after the first few pages altogether. This has done nothing more but make it clear that they don't even care how the players, who are giving them the money they so desperately want, feel about the changes they make to their game. While that's to be expected in mainstream games like WoW, that is definitely not something Turbine has the room to do with DDO.

[ShortRanger]

Thanks Aesop,

So I will be reduced from a lite tachtical tank to a mediocre fighter with ranged attack.......

These changes will take any shine off my charcaters that they may have.

One sad ranger/dwarf

[Ollathir]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.

[Inkblack]

Ink is that inside Lama?

No, just the regular servers.

[Aesop]

Thanks Aesop,

So I will be reduced from a lite tachtical tank to a mediocre fighter with ranged attack.......

These changes will take any shine off my charcaters that they may have.

One sad ranger/dwarf

Hang tight, these things have a way of working out.

pip pip chin up cheeri-o

If things are actually bad and not just preceived as bad then something will be changed... maybe they'll up a rate or something or down some hp or whatnot...

Aesop

[HarveyMilk]

Ok just saw this chart

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%




Turns out that my 12 fighter/7 monk/1 rogue will lose out without STWF getting included.

I have other guildies in the same boat with monster builds. What a shame. Would be nice if each tier of kensai got a +10% to hit with offhand weapon to compensate. That would give more flexibility.

[Angelus_dead]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.

I tried running the same quest on both versions with a TWF rogue, and the result was as expected. The 10% lower attack rate was noticeable, as if you had a 66% resistance to Haste. In addition there was the minor but detectable irritation that my offhand attack attempts became unreliable. But it's not as if I was unable to kill things I'd defeated previously.

One complication is there were some changes to quest obstacles without mention in the release notes, so we can't be 100% sure we're fighting the same monsters.

[IronClan]

It's a huge thread and people can't seem to stop asking the same redundant sometimes simplistic questions that have already been asked and answered so here's a summery:

italics are the common question or statement some are actual posts some generic
Dev responses in BOLD yellow
Any comment or opinion I add is in normal text

* FIX/UPGRADE the SERVERS instead of nerfing!!!111ONE1
We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

* You're trying to trick us by hiding a nerf in a lag fix
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.
Obviously they feel that TWF is overpowered a stance on it's face seems true but mostly due to the fact that most Melees benefit more from two weapons than one; due to effects, greensteel enchantments and things like double assassinate and double smite (which actually gets THF Paladins called gimp by some).

* why double strikes and why nerf TWF and fix lag at the same time
[we need to reduce] the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, [double strike] significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations Implicit: TWF and double strike are interrelated Double strike is necessary to replace speed boosts, specifically. But some balancing of TWF is needed or double strikes would be overpowered (and of course the earlier statement that they feel TWF holds "extreme dominance" over everything else.

* I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations
Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

*So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all.
Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

AND:
*if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away DA
Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

* Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill, The sky is falling, DoooOOoooMMMMm etc.
Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.) According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

*So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing
We're attacking the problem from many directions.


I'll probably repost this every few pages as needed...

[xxScoobyDooxx]

[QUOTE=Alhaz1970;3008630]It's a huge thread and people can't seem to stop asking the same redundant sometimes simplistic questions that have already been asked and answered so here's a summery:

Very nice post summary... Thanks for the effort.

+1 rep

[Retrodark]

So, will this change actually fix the lag experienced in part 1, 4, 5 of Shroud, because this the only lag that seems to affect everyone?