Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Gercho]

It's +8 STR from power surge, +6 damage from weapon specialization (fighters get enhancements that add to the weapon specialization feat damage), +4 to damage when using THF signature weapon, +8 to damage (before multipliers) *** a THF crit... Extended crit-range, and more glancing blows...

Plus 9 or so 30% Haste Boosts...

And 10% attack speed from capstone... (Before these changes come in anyway)

Thanks for the clarifications, the thing is that pure barbarian have the 10% attack speed aswell, and even when fighter has better crit range, the barb has better crit multiplier (up to +3 for 19-20 rolls) so it seems to me that fighter could have better burst damage with the haste boosts, but barbarians have better constant damage output...

[Ethias]

Thanks for the clarifications, the thing is that pure barbarian have the 10% attack speed aswell, and even when fighter has better crit range, the barb has better crit multiplier (up to +3 for 19-20 rolls) so it seems to me that fighter could have better burst damage with the haste boosts, but barbarians have better constant damage output...

The barbarian hidden haste bonus is supposedly getting removed, if that is what you are talking about RE: Barbarian 10% speed. We'll see if that happens, but yarh.

[Natashaelle]

If this is the case then the fault lies with Turbine data transmission/handling methods for combat data. Other users having mediocre connections should still be able to transmit the miniscule data set required to hold damage numbers. Also, there should not be lag issues caused by these slower users for other users to a noticable extent.

To be fair, when they stress tested the Shroud (as they must have done), the level cap was 16 and monk wasn't even in the game and nor was Tempest II & III ; so that the absolutely *insane* numbers of individual attacks that 10 or so 20th level outlandishly buffed-out DPSers can download onto a single unmoving target were unavailable for testing.

[Luis_Velderve]

You get Manyshot free with Ranger 6 aka tempest I ; and you can take +1 DEX AP enhancements on Ranger 2 and Ranger 6.

Sorry for being so allusive

LOL! I will reformulate my question, What equally good benefit in melee TWS I will gain in the" nerfed for lag" version of Tempest I PrE?

[Cyr]

Look, I agree with you that Eladrin's post was not accessible to people with lesser reading skills. That is what I said in my first real post in this thread, in fact, so you won't see me disagreeing there. What I do disagree with, however, is the intent. You think Eladrin is being purposefully dishonest and I don't.

Eladrin has the tendency to not realize how stupid some people are. Not like I can blame him. After 24k posts, I still get surprised once in a while.

The "threat" had literally no connection with the nerf portion of this change, unless I remember incorrectly. It was relating to the lag fix portion of this change: if they don't fix the lag through physical detection checks, they will have to change how Green Steel works. It shouldn't affect either of those discussions, Cyr.

Have you not read the forums for the last two years? If you ignore the ESoS, TWF is seriously better than THF. This does not need demonstration.

Borro0 and what part of associating a GS change with the lag fix makes it clear that the dps nerf is seperate from the lag fix? Do GS items cause more physics checks...nope. Do they increase dps...yup.

[krud]

And Rangers are the hardest hit. Not Monks or Rogues or any of that.

In absolute terms maybe, but they still end up on the top of the dps charts. You still won't find many other build options that will surpass them. You are complaining because instead of being 30% greater than all the rest, twf rangers are now only 10-15% better than all others. Even with the nerf they are still among the handful of top dps builds. Rogues and monks on the other hand were already working hard to just keep up. Now they'll fall further behind.

[Borror0]

Borro0 and what part of associating a GS change with the lag fix makes it clear that the dps nerf is seperate from the lag fix? Do GS items cause more physics checks...nope. Do they increase dps...yup.

Depends of to what audience you want it to be clear. Was pretty clear to me but my reading skills are, unfortunately, above the average.

[grodon9999]

Nerfing TWF ticks off everyone with a TWF character, aka most people. It also nerfs other characters in a cascade, such as the healers who now have to use more resources since DPS is down. And if you think enemy HP will be reduced to compensate, keep dreaming. We're still waiting on the lower mob to hits supposed to come with ROLL A BARB Blows.

Buffing THF makes those with THF happy without really ticking off many people. It also means ever increasing numbers being thrown around but welcome to MMOs.

But the real reason why I suspect most people are upset here is not the TWF nerf (though there is also that) but the dirty politics inherent to the way they chose to approach the community about it.

If the mob HPs were scaled down to the approximate DPS cut on average, I'd be okay with this. I wouldn't love it but I'd accept it.

[Cyr]

To be fair, when they stress tested the Shroud (as they must have done), the level cap was 16 and monk wasn't even in the game and nor was Tempest II & III ; so that the absolutely *insane* numbers of individual attacks that 10 or so 20th level outlandishly buffed-out DPSers can download onto a single unmoving target were unavailable for testing.

To be fair it is insane to think that ML or Lama have the populations to accuratly stress test a raid with many instances of it being run.

[Ethias]

Borro0 and what part of associating a GS change with the lag fix makes it clear that the dps nerf is seperate from the lag fix? Do GS items cause more physics checks...nope. Do they increase dps...yup.

So, admittedly I have not followed everything, but...

Where is this talk of threatening GS nerfs coming from? Where did Eladrin make that threat? I re-read the OP and I didnt notice it, am I just blind?

EDIT: Are you talking about the "Rather than look at heavy load equipment" quip? I mean, later on he specifically states he did not want to touch 'existing treasure systems' - to me this didn't seem like a threat of "if you think this change is bad, wait till we nerf your gear instead!"

EDIT2: When I first read "rather than looking at heavy load equipment" I thought he meant literally redoing how weapons, be it dual wielding, one handed, or two handed, were handled in the game entirely... in some games, you have a single item that is two swords or whatever. Perhaps this is the part of me that is not yet cynical enough for these forums and does not properly read posts from devs looking for hidden nerfs though.

[bobbryan2]

I wouldn't mind the STWF feat if the feats were rebalanced.

no feats = 50% offhand attack rate.
TWF = 75% offhand
ITWF = 85% offhand
GTWF = 94% offhand
STWF = 100% offhand

You've got two big problems right now. #1 that all the feats are created equal, which makes them completely necessary. That's not how TWF is supposed to work. You're supposed to get lesser returns for each feat. And B, that TWF is so completely useless until you grab iTWF and usually gTWF at 12. So even characters that spec for TWF shouldn't use that style for the majority of their levels.

Something like this would add the feat and actually add options by asking the question, "Is it better to get a 3% increase in DPS or a different feat."

Obviously 10% is way too much. Maybe 3% is still too much. But the end result is that the vast majority of offhand attacks should be grabbed by iTWF.

[Darkrok]

Update 5 releases June 28th.

A month to comment, playtest, make modifications to, playtest again, and comment on the largest change to DDO combat mechanics to date. Yet we are told time and again that even small changes require many months to implement (or small bug fixes).

Here's to hopping that this one does bring the game to a screaming halt due to some bug.

This is what I'm thinking as well. They're going to make this change that's going to completely overhaul the combat system and it's not loaded on their test servers with 26 days until its official release?

I understand what they're trying to accomplish. But the time window isn't on their side for fitting this in to Update 5.

[Cyr]

Depends of to what audience you want it to be clear. Was pretty clear to me but my reading skills are, unfortunately, above the average.

Then re-read that post by Eladrin for me and explain how it does not tie the two together. What part of GS weapons have anything to do with increased physics checks Borro0? Heck, he pretty much comes right out and says oh the lag fix and the dps nerf are inseperable.

From my other posts it should be clear to you that I don't think the physics checks alone are responsible for dps lag and a lot of it has to do with really poor coding by Turbine. There has been a noted reluctance to address poor coding and streamline it to work faster. Instead the methods have been to reduce the calls to this code. It was done with pathing coding for DA, it is being done with the physics checks (we now know they do grab multiple targets on non-glancing blows for example), and my assumption is that it is being done for dps calculations/transmission/storage by reducing the attacks per second through the dps nerf (note this is distinct from the physics check reduction as off hand attacks could proc a 1000 times on a single hit and you would still only need one physics check to do this).

[Cyr]

So, admittedly I have not followed everything, but...

Where is this talk of threatening GS nerfs coming from? Where did Eladrin make that threat? I re-read the OP and I didnt notice it, am I just blind?

I know Eladrin has a lot of posts in the dev tracker for this thread, but keep on going and you will hit it. Think it is post 400 something.

[Darkrok]

I wouldn't mind the STWF feat if the feats were rebalanced.

no feats = 50% offhand attack rate.
TWF = 75% offhand
ITWF = 85% offhand
GTWF = 94% offhand
STWF = 100% offhand

You've got two big problems right now. #1 that all the feats are created equal, which makes them completely necessary. That's not how TWF is supposed to work. You're supposed to get lesser returns for each feat. And B, that TWF is so completely useless until you grab iTWF and usually gTWF at 12. So even characters that spec for TWF shouldn't use that style for the majority of their levels.

Something like this would add the feat and actually add options by asking the question, "Is it better to get a 3% increase in DPS or a different feat."

Obviously 10% is way too much. Maybe 3% is still too much. But the end result is that the vast majority of offhand attacks should be grabbed by iTWF.

I really like this suggestion. I'd probably go a bit more gradual though but it's the same concept as when you're building a character and assigning points. You can get a lot of value out of those first 6 build points in a stat...when you get to the end though you're spending a ton of resources just to squeeze that last little bit of ability out of the character. As long as you struck the balance correctly you would have a situation where not taking the last tier of a feat would be a valid choice. I see similar things to this all the time on the enhancement side - whether it be taking that last point of efficient metamagics, the last point of halfling cunning/guile, or that last point of healing amp. It's harder with feats because you can't escalate the costs - only lessen the benefits - but it could still be done.

[bobbryan2]

Then re-read that post by Eladrin for me and explain how it does not tie the two together. What part of GS weapons have anything to do with increased physics checks Borro0?

From my other posts it should be clear to you that I don't think the physics checks alone are responsible for dps lag and a lot of it has to do with really poor coding by Turbine. There has been a noted reluctance to address poor coding and streamline it to work faster. Instead the methods have been to reduce the calls to this code. It was done with pathing coding for DA, it is being done with the physics checks (we now know they do grab multiple targets on non-glancing blows for example), and my assumption is that it is being done for dps calculations/transmission/storage by reducing the attacks per second through the dps nerf (note this is distinct from the physics check reduction as off hand attacks could proc a 1000 times on a single hit and you would still only need one physics check to do this).

The reluctance comes from the fact that none of these devs coded those base systems. They were written by a long-gone team that wrote the game from scratch and then left to build a new game.

So, you'll always see devs reluctant to delve into rewriting the engine from the ground up... because they have no idea how it's coded, and how one thing might break another thing. It's understandable. Sometimes it's an incredibly less amount of heartache to just keep putting band-aid upon band-aid on because rewriting small sections of the core systems is a monumental undertaking.

[Gercho]

The barbarian hidden haste bonus is supposedly getting removed, if that is what you are talking about RE: Barbarian 10% speed. We'll see if that happens, but yarh.

Yes, i mean the hidden bonus, and yes i think it will be removed, the thing is, that the barbarian hidden speed, being barbarian mainly THF users, was overrating THF damage in general, so, fixing that, and fixing the twitch, then the twf nerf will not make twf useless, that was my point from the start that got a little sidetracked...

[Aspenor]

In absolute terms maybe, but they still end up on the top of the dps charts. You still won't find many other build options that will surpass them. You are complaining because instead of being 30% greater than all the rest, twf rangers are now only 10-15% better than all others. Even with the nerf they are still among the handful of top dps builds. Rogues and monks on the other hand were already working hard to just keep up. Now they'll fall further behind.

My major concern is rogues. This change is a major kick in their teeth.

[Cyr]

The reluctance comes from the fact that none of these devs coded those base systems. They were written by a long-gone team that wrote the game from scratch and then left to build a new game.

So, you'll always see devs reluctant to delve into rewriting the engine from the ground up... because they have no idea how it's coded, and how one thing might break another thing. It's understandable. Sometimes it's an incredibly less amount of heartache to just keep putting band-aid upon band-aid on because rewriting small sections of the core systems is a monumental undertaking.

Oh I absolutly agree this probably stems from a it's going to be a head ache perspective. Sadly, it ignores that the alternatives are head aches for most of the paying customers.

Sometimes, you just have to do the hard work. I will keep on calling them on it when they take these short cuts out, because it is incrementally making our game less fun to play.

[redoubt]

I read where some people were experimenting with turning off their "floaty" damage numbers. Did this help in the shroud or similar DPS lag situations?

If it did, its seems that turning that off might be a good solution. Someone else mentioned some sort of scalling to the data packages. I don't know a lot about how that works or how/if it would help. But...

Would setting the system to turn that off for all the players in a specific instance work? i.e. the system detects a slow down and turns that feature off until the problem condition passes.

Sure, it might be fun to watch your big hit numbers fly up the screen, but once the lag starts you don't see them real time anyway so why not just get rid of them?