Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[jkm]

According to the developer announcement, Fortification debuffs such as from a dark monk only apply for enabling critical hits, not sneak attacks,

not correct at all. i have the first tier of wrack construct on my rogue since i had 2 APs left over and nothing to spend them on. it only lands once or twice through shroud part 1, but when it does - 'You Sneak Attack Portal for XX Damage"

however, testing on the portal in the vail, i can get crits, but never sneak attack. so what i typically do is let someone else beat on the portal first.

[Borror0]

No it was "dirty" all around. Eladrin used this to intentionally gain cover for this nerf.

It is clear in the OP that the nerf to DPS and the lag fix are separate changes, put together by practicality ("we're changing the system, so we take advantage of that opportunity to change the numbers too"). Unfortunately, some players do not understand this but that is because they are poor reading skills or did not read attentively, not because Eladrin was purposely misleading.

It is also dirty politics because he threatened a GS nerf instead of the TWF nerf.

It's not dirty if that seriously the other alternative unless you believe honesty is "dirty."

[eonfreon]

It was only "dirty" to the extent that maybe the TWF change should've been in the first paragraph of the announcement instead of halfway down.

I would call it far less "dirty" then just incredibly badly written.

The two things should have been spelled out separately.
Because the initial paragraph is always considered the "intent" of the piece. When I initially read it, long before the edits, I remember wondering what the heck he was talking about chances to proc with the off-hand.
I quickly grasped that it was a large nerf (especially with the initial numbers) to TWF and couldn't really see how it related to reducing lag, especially with the collision check piggback.

Then he finally clarified it.

But it's still all wrapped up with his initial comment of "how aggressively should we (Turbine) tackle the problem (of lag)".

And it's also wrapped up as "issues that contribute to lag", even if it's later somewhat separated into two topics: reduce lag with the collision check piggyback and a TWF nerf due to it's "extreme dominance".

When someone puts in "I won't lie" or such, it certainly gives the impression that they were trying to figure out how to at the least lie by omission. Had he not finally admitted that it was a nerf, then he would have been called an outright liar.

But anyway, all besides the point. The facts are that TWF has regained most of it's ground thanks to the outcry. As it boils down to, if I create a new TWf character, I'll simply use THF the majority of the time until I can qualify for GTWF.

Personally, I think Tempest 1 got the major shaft. They lost 10% off their offhand attacks AND lost their speed boost. It's incredibly stupid to take something so front loaded and then change it to be so backloaded.

As far as how aggressively should Turbine attack the dps lag?
Collision check piggback sounds good.
Turning speed boosts into "double strikes" sounds stupid.

[SquelchHU]

No it was "dirty" all around. Eladrin used this to intentionally gain cover for this nerf.

It is also dirty politics because he threatened a GS nerf instead of the TWF nerf.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. It's class warfare just like DA was. It's all the zergers fault. Now it's all the dpser's fault. Hey you like raids, it's your fault (wow no new raids since mod 9 give any clues here)... Hey you like to maximize your character, it's your fault.

IF dps lag is being caused by dps (as in bad coding doing calculations in truly backwards ways, bad data handling, or bad transmission of data methods) then the solution can not be to just nerf dps. This will never fix the problem. MMO's always have to scale to keep their end game progressive and keep players playing. If this is the cause of dps lag then Eladrin is doing nothing to truly fix anything.

If it's all in the physics checks then there is no logic to putting this nerf in with the lag fix except as 'pork barrel spending'. If there still needs to be more done to reduce the physics checks then why are haste boosts not being addressed here or madstone boots? Why is it grabbing multiple targets on a non glancing blow attack? It surely takes much more processing time to calculate the entire matrix of enemies within your swing range then it would to calculate the first target within your swing range or your targetted target->first target within if targetted is out of range.

I must spread some rep around before giving it to Cyr again.

And to AD: It's dirty politics because they shouldn't have been released together at all.

In politics it is a common, but unscrupulous practice to get people to pass things that they otherwise wouldn't by attaching them to things that would generally be regarded as appealing, knowing that the voters must accept or decline the whole and cannot just say 'Yes to the good part A, No to the tacked on part B'. I forget what they call this. Rider?

But the point is while few people would object to the good part and would vote Yes for it, far more would be opposed to the rider.

At which point the voter must either accept the whole and resent being manipulated into it or decline the whole and be portrayed as a bad person for doing so. 'So you're against fixing the lag?'

This is particularly true when things are worded in such a way that doesn't make it absolutely clear these are two separate things... which is rarely the case, as the rider is attached because that person wants something undesirable past and doing so would be a conflict of interests. Notice how some people are getting confused and thinking it's quantity of DPS causing lag instead of physics checks?

What cemented this is the comment that if the 'rider' isn't to nerf TWF DPS, it will be to nerf Greensteel instead. Of course this will get all the THF and casters up in arms.

Dirty politics.

[Natashaelle]

IF dps lag is being caused by dps (as in bad coding doing calculations in truly backwards ways, bad data handling, or bad transmission of data methods) then the solution can not be to just nerf dps. This will never fix the problem.

From my reading between the lines of the explanations given, plus some personal experience, I think that dps lag is caused by people raiding with rubbish connections, whether they're using WiFi or a crappy ISP.

Turbine has no control over these poor connections, but they may have previously neglected to take into account exactly how damaging they could be to the gameplay under certain conditions of stress.

So they can't do a house to house search of their customer database, and ban everyone playing on a 56k modem ; what they *can* do is simplify the game mechanics where the crappy connections are translated into lag. And turns out it's the 2WF, unfortunately

[Ollathir]

It's clear, from the context of that statement, that Eladrin purposefully exclude the ESoS from that statement as it is "the extreme outlier." It is true that, without the ESoS, THF and TWF are pretty far apart. While the ESoS did change that, it is an overpowered weapon by most standards.

It's safe to assume that changes will be seen, whether by improving single-handed weapons to that standard or nerfing the ESoS, but a designer does not drop such a bomb on the forums without having the intent of addressing the problem in the future.

Its the weapon effects that play into that "extreme outlier" situation. TWF provides 1.0 str dmg in the main hand, 0.5 in the off hand. THF provides 1.5 str dmg. By itself, pretty much even if you put a plain +5 two handed weapon against a set of plain +5 weapons the results will be pretty similar. With the Power attack feat you stretch that out a bit further by gaining double the damage bonus with THF.

I know this is over simplified but if you don't have the best damage dealing weapons in your hands as a TWF, you wont be any better off than a THF.

As far as assuming changes, I try not to, but I'd rather see weapons take the hit over character traits.

[Luis_Velderve]

What benefit you will get now from the new and not well explained Tempest I? A stairstep to Tempest II only?

Not even a low doublestrike benefit?

ufff! Here comes the flying guillotine....

[SquelchHU]

Where'd you get that from?


Yes, most likely they do.

Fortification stops both critical hits and sneak attacks, does it not?

While the term 'precision damage' comes from PnP and may or may not be used here, I see no reason why an enemy would be vulnerable to crits but not sneak attacks, or vice versa unless you did not meet the criteria for them (rolling high enough for a crit, or attacking non aggroed mobs for SA). So although I have not tested this, I strongly suspect that a given target's vulnerability to crits or SA is checked against one and the same stat. Fortification.

not correct at all. i have the first tier of wrack construct on my rogue since i had 2 APs left over and nothing to spend them on. it only lands once or twice through shroud part 1, but when it does - 'You Sneak Attack Portal for XX Damage"

however, testing on the portal in the vail, i can get crits, but never sneak attack. so what i typically do is let someone else beat on the portal first.

Which this post seems to confirm.

From my reading between the lines of the explanations given, plus some personal experience, I think that dps lag is caused by people raiding with rubbish connections, whether they're using WiFi or a crappy ISP.

Turbine has no control over these poor connections, but they may have previously neglected to take into account exactly how damaging they could be to the gameplay under certain conditions of stress.

So they can't do a house to house search of their customer database, and ban everyone playing on a 56k modem ; what they *can* do is simplify the game mechanics where the crappy connections are translated into lag. And turns out it's the 2WF, unfortunately

The lowest common denominator (which stems from client syncing) is a separate problem.

The cause of 'DPS lag' is not quantity of DPS, but a lot of physics checks.

This is why Monks (one of the lowest DPS classes) is one of the biggest contributors. Why? Lots of attacks, with lots of added dice.

It's also why if you get 6 Epic SoS Barbarians, you won't really have any DPS lag. Why? Despite the fact they do far more damage, their weapons are 'plain'. They'll have some vicious going on, and maybe force damage. That's it.

Edit: Forgot a response.

There was a guy arguing at one point that it was ok for a non epic level rogue to take an epic level feat that he didn't meet the prereq for because it was a bonus feat and didn't specifically say that they had to meet the prerequisites.

That was me. And there is no comparison. Evasion specifically says it only works with light or no armor, so it working in heavier armor is a bug. The Rogue bonus feat lists nothing about 'must meet prereqs'. The default for bonus feats is 'you need not meet prereqs'.

So there is no comparing an obvious bug in DDO to taking a feat that's pretty weak even by non epic standards like PTWF in D&D.

And then swap feats when I feel like running one or two epics?

Epic tokens are being nerfed. Why would you?

It puts twf builds at most one bonus point below max (16 vs 18 starting base str). Oh yeah that is HUGE . You are also getting two weapon effects that you can put on your shroud weapons, not to mention the ability to mix and match weapons for different situations. I don't know about you, but I got more than two weapons in my inventory. Having trouble hitting the epic mobs? Wield destruction and improved destruction at the same time for -12 to mob AC. Can a barbarian do that with one weapon? No.
..."b..b.bb..ut the barbarian's gonna steal my kill if I'm destructing them while he's dpsing" .

Turbine has a history of nerfing stuff if that dominates over everything else. TWF has been doing that for quite some time now. Now it'll be just a little better, instead of a lot better. The ones who really should be complaining are the monks and rogues. They get the biggest shaft, not the ranger exploiter builds, et al.

If he cared: Hound breastplate or DT Destruction Rune + Improved Destruction axe. Yes he can.

Hi Welcome

And Rangers are the hardest hit. Not Monks or Rogues or any of that.

[Natashaelle]

What benefit you will get now from the new and not well explained Tempest I? A stairstep to Tempest II only?

Not even a low doublestrike benefit?

ufff! Here comes the flying guillotine....

+2 DEX and Manyshot ?

<whistle>

[Deamus]

I'm afraid there is, although it is quite clear now, particularly after the input from Razcar (which was very constructive and informative, unlike the "input" from some others), that it has nothing like the severity of the lag that is encountered on the US servers -- I can only recall one single occasion where I have seen total freeze up when fighting against Harry, and the duration of it was too short to cause party wipe on that occasion.

THIS POST from the European forums presents what looks like an objective assessment of the typical difference between US version DPS lag and its Euro cousin :



This shows that the dps lag exists in Europe, but also that it is not so game breaking as it tends to be in US.

Typically, the worst that can occur in a normal medium dps run is that you can occasionally run with some fairly inexperienced healers who may not realise that healing needs to spammed regardless of what's showing on people's individual health bars, which cannot be fully relied on due to potential lag.

But you do occasionally see several people all suddenly dying simultaneously, due to damage being suddenly dealt to them in one big catch-up package which can cause wipe ; and if there are other sources of lag simultaneously, such as unusually large numbers of people logged on at once, or codemasters database management screw-ups, or whatever, then the raids in question can become simply unplayable (this is VERY rare).

---

People should take notice of the report of dps lag on Lammania, given that the active player base on that server is a *fraction* of the numbers playing in Europe.

---

The ONLY point of this tangent, from my point of view, has been to confirm that the description by the devs of the causes of this particular type of lag are borne out by lag that can, and does occasionally, occur on the most underpopulated DDO servers.

That's it ; and I will therefore contribute no more bandwidth towards establishing this ; not least, given that there are some people who are showing such a willful desire to attack this feedback as well as myself personally.

It is also clear, from the results of this tangential discussion, that the lag that people are generally encountering must have several different sources, because the dps lag per se, where it can be observed in action free of any other compounding sources of lag, as it exists on the more underpopulated servers, is insufficient in and of itself to make the raids in question unplayable. I cannot comment much further on this particular point, given that I do not play on the US servers, and I have not been very much exposed to the sorts of lag that can be found there ; although the limited effect of the dps lag on gaming on the more underpopulated servers would logically suggest that there may be deeper server/networking issues that Turbine may need to address.

Its obvious that you are twisting facts and posts so as to support your opinion. Even you tone down your opinion so as to be more likable. You have an agenda and you always supported that through your posts in Europe and USA.

Here is the whole thread i created in Europe about dps lag in Europe : http://community.codemasters.com/for...ag-europe.html

You guys can check this and draw your conclusion . Also have in mind some people are friends of the poster above. And i don't comment anymore, I don't feed anymore the troll .....
Over and Out....

[Cyr]

It is clear in the OP that the nerf to DPS and the lag fix are separate changes, put together by practicality ("we're changing the system, so we take advantage of that opportunity to change the numbers too"). Unfortunately, some players do not understand this but that is because they are poor reading skills or did not read attentively, not because Eladrin was purposely misleading.

It's not dirty if that seriously the other alternative unless you believe honesty is "dirty."

Yes Borro, putting a notice in near the bottom of his wall of text post noting that this was the case clearly dispelled any notions that players had that the lag fix was the physics check change and not the dps reductions. That is why there are so few posts stating otherwise in this thread right?

No I think threatening something else instead is "dirty". It's a scare tactic and nothing more, instead of addressing the primary need or lack of need for the nerf in the first place. I have not seen a single convincing post by Eladrin demonstrating that he either understands the current dps numbers nor that he has a well thought out reasoning for wanting TWF and THF dps to be very close. Tell me I'm wrong. Show me the post where he states what his statement even MEANS. Heck, he's throwing out the best THF weapon available for dps purposes to do this based upon his own statements. Is he likewise eliminating the best TWF weapons...oh there are not any impressive twf dps epic items.

[Borror0]

Its the weapon effects that play into that "extreme outlier" situation.*

You don't need to explain that to me. Perhaps you forgot but I'm the one who taught you how to calculate DPS.

I know this is over simplified but if you don't have the best damage dealing weapons in your hands as a TWF, you wont be any better off than a THF.

It is more than oversimplified. It's simplified to the point of being false. If you have a very small amount of static bonuses such as Favored Enemy, Divine Might or weapon enchantment then THf might end up being better. However, as soon as you put a few these together, TWF is better.

[smatt]

It is clear in the OP that the nerf to DPS and the lag fix are separate changes, put together by practicality ("we're changing the system, so we take advantage of that opportunity to change the numbers too"). Unfortunately, some players do not understand this but that is because they are poor reading skills or did not read attentively, not because Eladrin was purposely misleading.

It's not dirty if that seriously the other alternative unless you believe honesty is "dirty."

This..... I also think that Eladrin honestly came out and said "Hey everybody what do you think about this, how about some comments and ideas from the community" Now, I understand how people can get ****ed about nerfs or percieved nerfs. AND Eladrin, even on the first day was listening and started making adjustments, with even more hinted at now, and I'm sure mroe coming before and after the Lamania release. On top of that, many of the numbers people were tossing about were inflated.

Opinions on the various classes and how they should rank in pure DPS are all ove rhe place, people always seem to forget allt he other abilities of the various classes though. It's the players choice to not use those abilities, or to build them out of a charachter, while focusing onbyl on DPS. This is what confuses me... Barbs ARE the DPS class with little other to offer as far as self buffing, self healing, or anythign else, they are largely reliant on the rest of the party. While Rangers, Monks, Rogues, Fighters, Pali's.. They all have many other skills they can use. It is the PLAYERS choice to not use them when trying to create their specific "Max DPS" build. Get a clue people... There are different classes for a reason, if you choose to ignore the many other abilities of a class and focus solely on stretching the limits to maximize DPS on such a class.... Then dont' complain when the Devs actualyl do the right thing and attempt to bring you back down to where you should be in the first place.

Barbs should be the DPS toon in DDO, with fighters, rangers, rogues, pali's a step or 2 behind. it was and is a mistake for it to be any other way. And this shoudl also apply to THF over TWF, it is purely players chocie not to use the benefits of using differing weapons in each hand while TWF, which is or should be one of the advantages of such a fighting style.

[Luis_Velderve]

+2 DEX and Manyshot ?

<whistle>

Do not see that in any PrE description...

[eonfreon]

It is clear in the OP that the nerf to DPS and the lag fix are separate changes, put together by practicality ("we're changing the system, so we take advantage of that opportunity to change the numbers too"). Unfortunately, some players do not understand this but that is because they are poor reading skills or did not read attentively, not because Eladrin was purposely misleading.

Or perhaps his horrible writing skills.

I understood what he was saying and even I thought it seemed a bit hidden.

And where did he say anything to the effect that "we're changing the system, so we take advantage of that opportunity to change the numbers too"?
Certainly it was implied, but only if you read between the lines until he finally came out and said. Even then he never really clarified that it wasn't related to the lag fix.

His initial example in italics about how the collision system works and will be changed also includes the first mention of the offhand proc chances. It is couched as "we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:".

I don't think he's really trying to be misleading. However, I don't think it's simply a matter "of some players do not understand this but that is because they are (I think you mean "have") poor reading skills or did not read attentively.

[Natashaelle]

The lowest common denominator (which stems from client syncing) is a separate problem.

The cause of 'DPS lag' is not quantity of DPS, but a lot of physics checks.

This is why Monks (one of the lowest DPS classes) is one of the biggest contributors. Why? Lots of attacks, with lots of added dice.

It's also why if you get 6 Epic SoS Barbarians, you won't really have any DPS lag. Why? Despite the fact they do far more damage, their weapons are 'plain'. They'll have some vicious going on, and maybe force damage. That's it.

I'm thinking very much along the same lines as you are really, just from a different angle.

One of the posts by one of the devs clarified the point that all of these operations need to be confirmed, in the current setup, by each computer ; and that delays in these confirmations provide the lag, in the scenario where there are particularly massive numbers of simultaneous confirmations that need to be handled.

I am in full and complete agreement with your comments that monks cause more dps lag, despite often lower dps, than any 2HF in this scenario ; not least because in the smoothest and cleanest Shroud runs *connections-wise* that I've participated in lately, there's usually been a flock of 2HF brutes handling the DPS ; no rangers, no monks.

[Borror0]

Yes Borro, putting a notice in near the bottom of his wall of text post noting that this was the case clearly dispelled any notions that players had that the lag fix was the physics check change and not the dps reductions. That is why there are so few posts stating otherwise in this thread right?

Look, I agree with you that Eladrin's post was not accessible to people with lesser reading skills. That is what I said in my first real post in this thread, in fact, so you won't see me disagreeing there. What I do disagree with, however, is the intent. You think Eladrin is being purposefully dishonest and I don't.

Eladrin has the tendency to not realize how stupid some people are. Not like I can blame him. After 24k posts, I still get surprised once in a while.

I think threatening something else instead is "dirty". It's a scare tactic and nothing more, instead of addressing the primary need or lack of need for the nerf in the first place.

The "threat" had literally no connection with the nerf portion of this change, unless I remember incorrectly. It was relating to the lag fix portion of this change: if they don't fix the lag through physical detection checks, they will have to change how Green Steel works. It shouldn't affect either of those discussions, Cyr.

I have not seen a single convincing post by Eladrin demonstrating that he either understands the current dps numbers nor that he has a well thought out reasoning for wanting TWF and THF dps to be very close.

Have you not read the forums for the last two years? If you ignore the ESoS, TWF is seriously better than THF. This does not need demonstration.

[Cyr]

From my reading between the lines of the explanations given, plus some personal experience, I think that dps lag is caused by people raiding with rubbish connections, whether they're using WiFi or a crappy ISP.

Turbine has no control over these poor connections, but they may have previously neglected to take into account exactly how damaging they could be to the gameplay under certain conditions of stress.

So they can't do a house to house search of their customer database, and ban everyone playing on a 56k modem ; what they *can* do is simplify the game mechanics where the crappy connections are translated into lag. And turns out it's the 2WF, unfortunately

If this is the case then the fault lies with Turbine data transmission/handling methods for combat data. Other users having mediocre connections should still be able to transmit the miniscule data set required to hold damage numbers. Also, there should not be lag issues caused by these slower users for other users to a noticable extent.

[Ollathir]

You don't need to explain that to me. Perhaps you forgot but I'm the one who taught you how to calculate DPS.

It is more than oversimplified. It's simplified to the point of being false. If you have a very small amount of static bonuses such as Favored Enemy, Divine Might or weapon enchantment then THf might end up being better. However, as soon as you put a few these together, TWF is better.

lol, nah, didnt forget that. I respect your opinion more than a lot of others but I still don't see the benefits of TWF's as being extremely better than a well made THF, even w/o ESoS. My point being the discussion can favor one or the other based on many factors that effective THF and TWF use to play the game.

[Natashaelle]

Do not see that in any PrE description...

You get Manyshot free with Ranger 6 aka tempest I ; and you can take +1 DEX AP enhancements on Ranger 2 and Ranger 6.

Sorry for being so allusive