Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[wolfy42]

This would be a major change and I think over all it's a bad idea but would like some clarification.

First what happens to your chance to proc another hit while moving? Currently I believe you only hit with the offhand while moving 50% of the time right now till you get GTWF. Will you get the full double attack chance while moving with the new change?

Second I'm not sure if it's possible or even how many things stack at this point (like fighter haste boost, monk wind boost, tempest boost, GTWF all on one character for instance) but if you get over 100% chance to proc a second attack.....can you get 3 attacks?

From my perspective it's a fairly significant damage reduction for any build that currently gets GTWF (100% off hand attacks) and has Tempest, Monk stances etc are going to be hit hard.

Other "fun" builds such as monk/rogue acrobat builds may also lose some viability

How about just letting players vote if they would rather keep lag (or work on other fixes to it) then implement these changes? I'd vote for keeping the lag personally.

Make changes like this instead:

1 attack roll for both main and offhand attacks (averaging the two hit if they are different between the two and rounding down). I'd happily sacrifice 1 to hit at most to reduce lag and I'm sure everyone else would do the same way before having these changes implemented to TWF. It would suck for procing effects though since 2 chances to stun with weighted is obviously better then 1 chance, but even so it would STILL be better then the option stated.

I actually really like THF but this is even a nerf to that (which if anything else I would certainly change). Why reduce how well monk stance affects staff fighting? Yeah, I'm one of the few insane people who likes fighting with a staff with my monk, but I make it work. Reducing his attack speed is seriously going to affect his effectiveness though.

This is not a good change according to what you have proposed.

As it is most of us recommend holding off till mid levels before using TWF right now (THF is just more effective). With these proposed changed THF is not just even with TWF it's plain out better. Higher AB, easier to punch through DR, Glancing blows (affects main target as well), additional proc chances on effects, double PA and 1.5 strength bonus.

The only character that would really be better with TWF is possibly a H2H monk at that point (mainly because of full strength bonus to both hands and no insight bonus to attack speed anymore).

Even a tempest ranger would blow compared to a THF ranger!!!

I mean tempest 3 currently gives an extra attack (9 instead of 8)....but with the implied change you would (if I'm reading it right) only get an 85% chance for an offhand attack? Seriously how can you compare that to THF damage anymore?

Heck THF damage might be larger without any THF feats or enhancements!!

Who they heck is going to sacrifice 3-4 of their ranger feats to qualify for Tempest? It will pretty much kill rangers as a class I'm guessing by destroying TWF as a primary combat option.

And without Tempest look at the numbers.

A normal character without tempest but full GTWF would only have a 55% chance to proc offhand attacks (say a fighter). A pure fighter that gets the capstone bonus might pump that up to 65% chance. Compare that to THF damage and there is no way anyone is going to bother with TWF.

Also is fighter capstones double hit proc going to work for two handed weapons as well? You say it and zeal offer a 10% chance to get a double main hand attack so I'm guessing it will affect two handed weapons.

If that is the case, why not do the same for monks insight bonus? Make it also give a chance for an extra MAIN HAND ATTACK so it affects staff attacks as well!!

There has to be a better way to fix lag. Don't nerf a ton of characters and ruin many players builds in the process. Yes we can reincarnate but many of us don't want to and don't want our current characters to no longer be worth playing. Many builds are made around the current mechanics and these changes are too drastic in my opinion.

[EyeRekon]

No offense but this just reinforces the idea that your mind is made up and you are just selling it to us else if the public, your customers, don't like something then the change it would require would/could force you outside of your time frame as well. Meaning it/they wouldn't be done.

Yep, sounds like this is going in then wait for for the players to moan enough until some future date that you may fix it back.

I agree. This may be their first idea/proposal, but certainly isn't the only possible "solution." I'd hope that by soliciting feedback they are indeed looking for alternatives instead of selling it. I'd further hope that they would only want to enrage their player base as a last resort.

So far, honestly, the proposed cure seems worse than the disease. I've already learned to cope with the lag as both DPS and healer. Of course I don't want the lag, but the proposal seems to make far reaching mechanics and balance implications that just don't need to be mucked with.

Yet at the same time I acknowledge change as constant and you cannot paralyze progress in game development by appeasing those that have invested heavily in the old ways of things.

[Thrudh]

Ok, how much less?

You sure as hell don't know... Until you see the code yourself, quit writing comments that "prove" that this change will not help lag at all...

[Visty]

Monks do NOT get a chance to double strike unless they're multiclassed with another class that gets double strikes.

or have an item which gives double strikes

[Chai]

So along with the str nerf, the main hand weapon just became even more important, and the offhand weapon is going to be more of the icing on the cake.

As I stated in another thread on this, my advice would be to be ready to back out of it if it affects too many people negatively, as this is too large of a change to implement on numbers alone and hope it works itself out.

[bobbryan2]

Currently, both stunning fist and tod break your attack chain and restrict you to 1 attack, you don't get double anything when using either of these abilities.

You don't get double trips now, but eladrin said you would with offhand strikes, hence why I was asking weather or not a proc'd offhand strike would also be a stunning fist if the first attack was a stunning fist, and hence why eladrin mentioned tod both double striking with double strike and offhand strikes.

So yes, as far as I can tell, Double strike is identical to offhand strikes for unarmed monks.

So... if you don't get double procs for ToD now... why would you get them after this change? The offhand mechanic hasn't changed... Only the percentage that the offhand goes off.

Eladrin said you could get double strike ToDs if you got the double strike ability FROM ANOTHER CLASS.

[Seosamh]

To reduce lag with raid bosses:

Now instead of having to fight the raid boss, when your party enters a raid you make a cumulative percentage roll based on your party and their equipment vs. the raid boss - you then either succeed or fail!

[Khelden]

Paladin and Fighter: Currently, paladins and fighters are seen as effective with either TWF or THF. This change will make TWF paladin/fighters a laughingstock. They'll be berated by other players for making a non-optimal choice, until they switch to two-handed fighting.

Paladins and fighters are effective with THF... Untill you compare them with their TWF equivalent. Then THF looks like a huge joke.

THEY ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL RIGHT NOW. The situation you are talking which will happen is what is currently happening to THF.

This change will allow a choice between THF and TWF, instead of TWF suprematie.

[tihocan]

Currently, both stunning fist and tod break your attack chain and restrict you to 1 attack, you don't get double anything when using either of these abilities.

You don't get double trips now, but eladrin said you would with offhand strikes, hence why I was asking weather or not a proc'd offhand strike would also be a stunning fist if the first attack was a stunning fist, and hence why eladrin mentioned tod both double striking with double strike and offhand strikes.

So yes, as far as I can tell, Double strike is identical to offhand strikes for unarmed monks.

This seems to contradict this statement by Eladrin: If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.

Edit: Hmm actually I'm confused now. It seems like it means it trigger on off-hand as well.

[Khelden]

Whatever I'll continue to play. I'll adjust to it and move on with it.

That's what I call the winner-attitude which most people seems to lack these days...

[TFPAQ]

Currently, both stunning fist and tod break your attack chain and restrict you to 1 attack, you don't get double anything when using either of these abilities.

You don't get double trips now, but eladrin said you would with offhand strikes, hence why I was asking weather or not a proc'd offhand strike would also be a stunning fist if the first attack was a stunning fist, and hence why eladrin mentioned tod both double striking with double strike and offhand strikes.

So yes, as far as I can tell, Double strike is identical to offhand strikes for unarmed monks.

...you did get ToD from both hands (i.e. off-hand strikes) ... they changed that pretty quick by the way too...

With a proper multi-class or Jorgundal's collar (once they switch it), future Warchanter ... ToD x 3 doesn't appear to be impossible ...

[dkyle]

Your math is flawed. A 70 str barb would have (70-10)/2 *1.5 (two handed weapon) from str. This would be 30*1.5= 45 not 30. The power attack number for two handed fighing is also wrong. I'll stop there, but that should give an indication of the degree of error here.

You're right. Corrected my post. Even the best TWF class can't beat a barbarian. Or come even close. That's excluding glancing blows, eSoS...

[Coldin]

I will chime in again here. I agree with a few other people that any TWF build that isn't monk or tempest is going to be hurt a great deal by this change.

Rogues in particular seem to have little recourse to increase their damage. That might be less of a problem if rogues could get through monster's fortification, or have chances to deal increased sneak attack damage.

[Angelus_dead]

Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

That (and double strike) bears an uncanny resemblance to suggestions I've made, eg this.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later.

But there isn't 0.15 seconds of time between the mainhand and offhand portion of a TWF swing...? It can be logically simultaneous, and thus share in the physics result with no concern for movement rate.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?)

There's an interesting question about why you went ahead with Epic SOS after it had been leaked and the overpoweredness had been thoroughly discussed.

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.

Ok, stop, here's the big important question:
Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

I know it's tough to say "Well, this kind of combat style is going to be superior to another against single targets", but otherwise it's unfair to the people who put in the higher effort to equip for TWF.

It must be emphasized that although the motivation for the change might be fixing DPS lag, the primary effect will be to nerf TWF characters. Under 1% of DDO's encounters have a real chance for bad DPS lag, but a TWF nerf will hurt everywhere except Hazadil's warehouse. Those changes are not bound to happen together: you could change to the percentage chance for an extra attack while leaving the total average number of offhand attacks the same.

[Anthios888]

So, excluding glancing blows, Tempest is pretty far ahead. I'm not sure how to calculate them, but I don't think they make up 30 damage per swing against a single target..

Actually... they do! This 70 Strength Barbarian would see glancing blows on 75% of his swings if he had G2HF, and on 50% if he did not and/or he was twitching to increase his attack speed. With the stats you just laid out, the autoattacking barbarian would add 42.7 damage per second from glancing blows alone. Twitching brings the number down to 37.2dps. This is bbefore any extra effects like tempest, ravager, or whatever that also add to glancing blows.

For me, it was the swing speed discrepancy between twitch/nontwitch and between greensteel sword of shadows that called two handed fighting into question in some situations -- they were just less consistent.

[Seosamh]

You sure as hell don't know... Until you see the code yourself, quit writing comments that "prove" that this change will not help lag at all...

and neither do you

I'm not "proving" anything, and I will not quit writing comments because you "told me to."

I don't need to know how much or little this will reduce lag to know that I don't like the idea.

[Chai]

You sure as hell don't know... Until you see the code yourself, quit writing comments that "prove" that this change will not help lag at all...

Bring on the testing. Ill be more than happy to run a few raids with the change to see how it affects each of my toons.

One more question - if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away with the number one most unrealistic game mechanic used right now that claims to do just that? I am referring to DA here.

[Thrudh]

So along with the str nerf, the main hand weapon just became even more important, and the offhand weapon is going to be more of the icing on the cake.

Everyone is concentrating on DPS... but I think what this really hurts is off-hand weapons like paraylzers or stat-damagers or vorpals or smiters, etc..

I've always thought that THF should be king of DAMAGE.... but TWF should be king of effects...

Think about the rogue with 2 radiance II rapiers... That second rapier is only being used 55% of the time now? Ouch...

[OldAquarian]

It seems there are a few different things in play here under the guise of lag

What the player sees
What the network sees

What the player sees
There is no need to change what the player sees - at all
Neither the appearance of separate attacks, or the resultant DPS

What the network sees
The idea of a 'piggy back' for offhand attacks is good, you can actually visually delay the results 0.15 sec
Taking this a step further:
There seems to be a probably erroneous correlation between attack speed and movement speed
You are currently checking to see if a character has moved (or the monster) on every attack
So if you attack twice as fast, you are checking twice as often for movement

Attack speed is independant of movement

Take the slowest attack speed, and check every character - regardless of attack speed that often
You can 'batch' attack rolls and results similiarly

This will address lag

Then we can test the TWF nerf independantly

[Jamma]

I have mixed feelings about this, particularly for monks. Most of the appeal for me, to be honest, of the monk class is the style of fewer HP damage per hit but many hits at high speed. If the speed was lower or bore no discernible difference to any other melee class I'd see far less reason to play one (and theoretically to pay for one, I suppose). Edit: I see I've misunderstood this and the speed will stay the same. Durrr, apologies! Forget I said anything then. It's certainly worth testing.

The haste remains, the stackable insight bonus to haste poofs for all classes that have them (monk air stance 10%, ranger tempest 10%, fighter alacrity 10%, paladin zeal 10%) and morph in to either a stackable chance for offhand weapon to attempt an attack or a chance to double attack with the main hand weapon.

Its really the significant reduction in offhand attacks that has TWF's in arms, and THF's crowing to the winds.