Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Yes.

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.

The DEV says you are wrong.

[Gobbothegreen]

Heres some numbers for those who say this will make THF the only viable combat style after this nerf.

Using min 2 GA

Dps of a twitching THF barb currently (62str):
447.67

Dps of the same barb after removal of glancing blows from twitch:
379.88

Non twitch:
376.99

Dps loss:
379.88/447.67=0.84857149239395090133357160408336
15.1%



Then with the additional loss of 10% when they fix the capstone bug, barbs will loose more than most twf.

[Gercho]

The DEV says you are wrong.

If they nerf twitching (they proposed one way to do it already in this thread), they remove the hidden alacrity capstone from the barb (that was aknowledged as a bug in this thread), and they nerf eSoS (they hinted is overpowered in this thread) or make better epic one handed weapons, then twf will be ahead of thf after the twf nerf.

[Borror0]

One more dumb question - got a 12/6/2 I'm growing - will Tempest I actually give any benefit at all? Ram's might is still nice.

It gives you a +10% proc bonus to your offhand, which roughly translates into a +5% DPS buff.

[Cyr]

One more dumb question - got a 12/6/2 I'm growing - will Tempest I actually give any benefit at all? Ram's might is still nice.

Ram's might is nice as are the class feats as are the class feats. Tempest 1 grants less benefits then before though and the competitive advantage of the monster build will have to be looked at again (assuminig that is the class break out here) compared to other breakdowns.

[Inkblack]

Uh, no. There are four mainhand attacks per animation loop. Your Rogue is going from 4+4 = 8 to 4+4*0.8 = 4+3 = 7.

Where does the old 4th off-hand attack come from? I thought it was 1 for putting the weapon in your hand, 1 for ITWF, and 1 for GTWF. I thought TWF just reduces the penalty.

Sucks that the wiki and compendium are blocked by Websense for me.

[SteeleTrueheart]

For a player to argue against the STWF feat does not necessarily imply endorsing any particular rate of offhand attacks.

Which is true and is my preferred stance. Though no one is actually saying that off hand rates should stay at 100% during there discussions with me. And if the off hand attacks were staying at 100% with GTWF then this discussion would not be happening in the first place.

However the current stance of Eladrin is 80% off hand and no STWF. If the 80% is non negotiable, then I want to make sure STWF not being implemented is not as certain.

[Cyr]

It gives you a +10% proc bonus to your offhand, which roughly translates into a +5% DPS buff.

It would be far more accurate to simply state it translates to less then a 5% dps increase. Off hand attacks do not do as much damage per hit as main hand attacks do. The larger swings come with higher str. builds with less damage per hit mods. For example, a TWF barbarian would gain less of a % of dps increase from tempest 1 as a TWF dex based rogue.

[Coldin]

The DEV says you are wrong.

Yeah...

Relatively close does not mean "THF is better than TWF" nor does it mean "TWF and THF are the same"

It means they are close. Look at some of the people that ran the numbers. TWF still pulls ahead of THF.

[grodon9999]

This is all such a big bucket of BS, viva la lag!

[jkm]

TWF rogues get a relative buff. Double strike only applies to main hand, which means that TWF fighters, monks and paladins all lose 5% DPS but TWF rogues do not.

and when you factor in radiance and crippling strike into it, do we still get a relative buff?

[Gercho]

It would be far more accurate to simply state it translates to less then a 5% dps increase. Off hand attacks do not do as much damage per hit as main hand attacks do. The larger swings come with higher str. builds with less damage per hit mods. For example, a TWF barbarian would gain less of a % of dps increase from tempest 1 as a TWF dex based rogue.

since double strike applies only to main hand, its less than 5% for zeal paladins and will keep being even worst if they keep transforming speed bonuses into double strike bonuses...
Pal 14 ranger 6 is other of the most hit combos with these changes, it was 120%/120% and after the changes will be 110%/90%

[Coldin]

One more dumb question - got a 12/6/2 I'm growing - will Tempest I actually give any benefit at all? Ram's might is still nice.

*shrug* You still get your TWF and ITWF feats for free, and Tempest I gives you 10% off-hand strikes which currently noone else can get.

So I say, yeah, you're still getting some benefit. Plus you are still getting some ranger spells. Like you said, Ram's Might is nice.

[SteeleTrueheart]

If they nerf twitching (they proposed one way to do it already in this thread), they remove the hidden alacrity capstone from the barb (that was aknowledged as a bug in this thread), and they nerf eSoS (they hinted is overpowered in this thread) or make better epic one handed weapons, then twf will be ahead of thf after the twf nerf.

Do you see what you said

If A, if B, if C and if D, then TWF will be ahead of THF after the nerf. So many ifs I am getting dizzy.

A - nerf twitching. Shade has already shown that even without glancing blows procs. twitching increases your dps especially vs 1 opponent.

B - Barbs are not an issue since they do not go TWF now as it is.

C - Loot nerfs are the last resort of the DEVs. You think this thread is big. Imagine if shroud gear was nerfed.

D - Epic. So I have to wait until I upgrade an epic item to get the DPS I need... to get into epic content.... holy conundrum batman!

[Krag]

Options? What options?

Every melee takes either the THF feats or the TWF feats. Those 2 feat chains are the only options. If they become balanced in DPS terms then THF becomes greater than TWF as the requirements are cheaper.

This limits build options, as then the only sensible option is to be a THF build.

Right now on my splashed warchanter I can comfortably take twf-itwf-gtwf chain, meet prestige requirements, get toughness, extend and a choice of otwf or maximise. I could have also rolled pure bard without a luxury of extend and maximise. Tough choice but still viable.

Proposed STWF will destroy twf pure bard because there is no way for him to squeeze another feat.

[Gercho]

Do you see what you said

If A, if B, if C and if D, then TWF will be ahead of THF after the nerf. So many ifs I am getting dizzy.

A - nerf twitching. Shade has already shown that even without glancing blows procs. twitching increases your dps especially vs 1 opponent.

B - Barbs are not an issue since they do not go TWF now as it is.

C - Loot nerfs are the last resort of the DEVs. You think this thread is big. Imagine if shroud gear was nerfed.

D - Epic. So I have to wait until I upgrade an epic item to get the DPS I need... to get into epic content.... holy conundrum batman!

I know that its a lot of ifs, but all the ifs were addressed somehow in this same thread, about your points:

A - twitching could still be better than not twitching after the nerf, but it will be worst than before anyway, like 15% worst, so twitching benefit will be around 5% instead of 20%, i m ok with that

B - Barbs are an issue imo, cause they are the highest THF dps, so when twf compares against THF they are comparing themselves with barbs, if barbs get nerfed, then suddenly twf comparisons are much better

C and D, if you want to exclude all epic weapons, then you dont need my third if, i mean, twf without epic weapons will be better than thf without epic weapons, the problem now is that if both have access to epic weapons, then the thf cuts the difference, which is bad, around the same difference should be kept if you compare two non epic, or two epic chars...

[SteeleTrueheart]

Yeah...

Relatively close does not mean "THF is better than TWF" nor does it mean "TWF and THF are the same"

It means they are close. Look at some of the people that ran the numbers. TWF still pulls ahead of THF.

Sigh.

The DEV who has 10x the info any forum number cruncher thinks they have, said EXTREMELY close. Not relatively close.

[Angelus_dead]

Though no one is actually saying that off hand rates should stay at 100% during there discussions with me.

Yes, but you're not a developer. There's no motivation to spend a lot of effort repeating stuff just for you. You're creating a strong impression of not having read this thread.

[redoubt]

I think that AD and Borro0 are on to something about the loss of options. (Don't tell them I said so please. )

STWF or not, this proposed change reduces options.

Real quick, please raise your hand if you have a dex build you still play? Bueller?...

No dex build can do dps comparable to a str build. (I'm not saying its way off, but its 4-5 points per hit on the low end for dex vs str of the same class to 15 or more per hit if you go monk or ranger compared to raged barb.)

Dex builds, in my opinion, survive based on speed of attacks and effects. By being faster I can keep up because I'll make an extra hit on occasion that the str guy doesn't. In this way I do not fall so far behind on damage. When we go to vorpal-fest I might come out on top by a bit (unless str based TWFer with same feats, then I'm just even.)

(Not addressing epic at all because I'm not knowledgeable enough about it.)

In normal (i.e. norm, hard, elite) play a dex build can be a good contributor to the team because of speed. If the proposed changes are implemented I fear that dex based characters will be hard pressed to get a group.

So... I've read a few options in this thread that might help keep dex based characters an option.

1. Just do the new physics check and don't reduce the attack rate. (Benifits all TWF)
2. Give STWF to rangers for free. (Though this only fixes it for rangers and fighters who have enough feats)
3. Boost the finesse feat. Could even have it add back in the 20% proc rate that GTWF is missing in the proposed change. (Benifit dex based.)
4. Add in off hand proc rate based on dex bonus. (Benfits dex based)
5. Adjust the proc table to allow GTWF to not lose off hand attacks. (Benifits all TWF)

[krud]

The new system already has lots of builds that are screwed. It is dishonest or naive to claim otherwise. Eladrin's stated goal, to bring the dps of TWF and THF to about the same level will result in TWF builds being hosed as it has many more requirements to achieve top dps in builds then THF does. The stated goal and the follow up by Eladrin has me convinced that this is happening pretty much as is and that more TWF nerfs will continue to trickle into the game. Note that all the alacrity changes so far have been implented to help THF more then TWF by using only double strike mechanics. I expect more of these effects to be transfered over time. Each one cutting off a little bit of TWF dps from one build or another.

The writing is on the wall. There is going to be a cycle where it just will not be worth playing TWF toons. Roll your THF toons now or wait a year or two until THF toons completely dominate end game and the decision is made to over swing on the mark again and nerf THF to oblivion.

Example, was talking to one of my guildies last night. His main is a dwarven intimitank. He TWF's now because it narrowly beat out THF dps for his toon in the past. He uses dwarven axes to save a feat. Right now he is figuring out the specifics of his LR to go THF because the incremental changes to THF and TWF have completely shifted his dps picture. He's finding out that he gets to save a feat (OTWF), do more dps when in S&B mode (glancing blows with DA), and do more dps in dps mode then he would TWF. This is a case in point of the discussion about TWF having more sacrifices then THF. It is also a telling picture of the off optimal dps drop off being greater for TWF since he is thinking about not getting the third THF feat which would be a crazy choice to make for TWF.

My 12ftr/6pal/2rog intimtank is likewise getting the shaft, but luckily i went the cheap route and have 2 earthgrab khopeshes to use on epic trash. They will still work. The non-ranger twf seem to be coming out the worst, but i don't know many of those that were at the top of the dps chart to begin with. Relatively speaking they will probably be in the same position on the dps charts as before.

To all the other TWF who are already geared out with dual shroud weapons, and sit at the top of the dps charts, why would you need to reroll/TR? You already have what you need, and you'll still be at the top of the dps charts. You may have to share that place with a THF, but you won't have to grind it all over again.