Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Krag]

No choice? Then technically there is no choice for a fighter to not take at the least the first TWF feat as that will remove all attack penalties and give you a 40% off hand attack rate.

On a TWF fighter. Sure take STWF. Because you are going TWF and you have the feats. Even though the +2 dex requirement would be costly.

On a Paladin. +2 Dex and ANOTHER feat slot is horribly expensive.

Still think the benefit outweighs the cost? Then up the cost. Min Dex 20? Min Dex 21? Pre req OTWF? Pre req Weap Focus? Even Dex rogues would start feeling the pain then.

Higher cost would restrict viable choices even further. Instead go twf paladin or twf fighter, there will be +4Dex tome or twf fighter.

[Coldin]

No choice? Then technically there is no choice for a fighter to not take at the least the first TWF feat as that will remove all attack penalties and give you a 40% off hand attack rate.

On a TWF fighter. Sure take STWF. Because you are going TWF and you have the feats. Even though the +2 dex requirement would be costly.

On a Paladin. +2 Dex and ANOTHER feat slot is horribly expensive.

Still think the benefit outweighs the cost? Then up the cost. Min Dex 20? Min Dex 21? Pre req OTWF? Pre req Weap Focus? Even Dex rogues would start feeling the pain then.

Soo...the choice is...take it if you're a fighter, don't take it if you're a rogue?

The point is, if STWF was added, any build worth it's salt would have to have it. Not having it would make it gimped. And to any feat starved class like paladins, there's a good chance they would have trouble affording it in the first place.

Feat decisions are best when they let your character go in one of many directions. They're not so good when they simply mean your character is behind the curve.

[R0cksteady]

So, you're crying because something else will be 'at least equal' to TWF?

We've heard this all before when changes have come... "No one will ever use web again!" "No one will ever use a batman build again!" "No one will ever play a cleric!" None of those held up, either.

You're missing the point. A lot more work is involved in TWF for grinding for weapons, and a lot of wasted attribute points (As I've stated, Dex is pretty much the most useless stat to a DPS fighter in most cases, other than Charisma). Lower to-hit (Can make a difference on epic until you're well geared) and more feats need to be taken. Why go through all of that to do the same as you could do with THF without having to pump points into dex, while taking less feats to do well in the style and have a higher to-hit, not to mention get glancing blows.

[Borror0]

No choice? Then technically there is no choice for a fighter to not take at the least the first TWF feat as that will remove all attack penalties and give you a 40% off hand attack rate.

That is correct. It's a must-have for any TWF specced characters.

Still think the benefit outweighs the cost? Then up the cost. Min Dex 20? Min Dex 21? Pre req OTWF? Pre req Weap Focus? Even Dex rogues would start feeling the pain then.

It's, more or less, +10% DPS based on Eladrin's OP. It's a lot of DPS and anyone who skips on it will be greatly behind. I know people willing to spend three feats for that much DPS. You know, Tempest I. You're clearly underestimating the worth of the feat.

Unless you push the Dexterity requirement way, way up so only Dex builds can take it, there is no way for it to be balanced.

It's not just a choice between stopping at GTWF or grabbing STWF. It's a choice about if you go THF or TWF too. How would the balance fall into that? If you don't put the prerequisite in Dex-build only territory, how do you plan to balance THF versus GTWF and STWF builds? Does GTWF builds get to be subpar, therefore making STWF builds the only choice for TWF or do you make GTWF equal to THF, in which case STWF is the dominant choice and that some builds are screwed?

[BlackSteel]

You forgot one important thing. Barbs are extremely feat-starved and twf requires 1 (2 if you count otwf) more feat(s). Without significant DPS increase there is no way a barb would consider twf viable.

a barbarian that took OTWF should be backhanded all the way back to korthos. Its simply not needed.

additionally, since the introduction of FB, most weapon sets (TWF) are better off being a heavy pick/light pick for everything but raid bosses. And there you're looking at just a difference of slightly less than 10% averaged base damage, or cut that in half agaisnt 50% fort bosses.

heck going from epic -> back to regular gameplay, you can weild the khopeshs w/o the feat and just eat the penalty.

[grodon9999]

Instead of nerfing attack and off hand percentages why not just balance the other class abilities and make THF viable for other classes? This would mean doubling the class abilities for the THF style. I dont think anyone is going to scream bloody murder about that... and it would open up the THF style for other classes besides the Barb.

my 2 cents.

Because then Turbine couldn't make as much money selling SP pots in the DDO store.

[Auran82]

What's wrong with the TWF feats 'capping out' at 80% and leaving the remainder (or parts thereof) be granted by PREs or spells/capstones whatever?

KotC/HotD - Each rank of the PRE improves offhand attack chance Vs Evil Outsiders/Undead, there could also be a glancing blow increase vs those enemies.
Zeal Increases doublestrike and offhand chance by 10%
Kensai - Increase offhand chance with each rank if your offhand weapon is your chosen type, maybe increase doublestrike chance by a small amount if your main hand weapon is the chosen type, as it is now, increase glancing blows as per normal.
Assassin - Improves offhand attack chance per rank and maybe add doublestrike chance (as someone mentioned) of the rogue PREs this is really the TWF one
Frenzied berserker could probably have increases tied in with Frenzy and death frenzy
Monk? Well, the stances could probably be defined a little more and have various bonuses tied in to offhand attacks etc.

If you can get your offhand chance over 100% no reason why you shouldn't be able to get offhand doublestrikes.

[Angelus_dead]

While we are talking about Twitching please don't confuse real twitch gameplay with the kind of ridiculous dry-humping that some THF:ers practice here in DDO.

"Twitch" and "twitch gameplay" are terms originating from first-person shooters and means quick reactions and maneuvering to respond to game events. You can play that way in DDO as well, since it has FPS controls (mouse look and WASD).

It should not really be used as a synonym to this exploitive jerking (often done through macro keyboards by the way, even lamer) thats fools the DDO attach chain mechanics - the term "twitch" has just been misused to give the THF attack chain exploit some credibility.

This is totally true. People who use the exploit switch like to exaggerate how much attention it requires to do it while staying aimed at the monster, but that's simply dishonest.

[Krag]

a barbarian that took OTWF should be backhanded all the way back to korthos. Its simply not needed.

additionally, since the introduction of FB, most weapon sets (TWF) are better off being a heavy pick/light pick for everything but raid bosses. And there you're looking at just a difference of slightly less than 10% averaged base damage, or cut that in half agaisnt 50% fort bosses.

heck going from epic -> back to regular gameplay, you can weild the khopeshs w/o the feat and just eat the penalty.

And then swap feats when I feel like running one or two epics?

[Angelus_dead]

Here's an idea of a weakness that can be added to TWF combat, usable as an additional balance so the offhand attack rate doesn't have to be reduced as much:
The offhand attack gets a cumulative TWF penalty throughout the iterative attack series.

The iterative attack step is +5, so that change means that the offhand would only benefit by +3 on the 3rd swing or +6 on the 4th swing (instead of +5/+10). Using a large offhand (without OTWF) would make it +1/+2. Since a Tempest Ranger doesn't have a TWF attack penalty he'd continue to get the full increase.

The intent of this change is to take what is supposed to be a balancing factor for TWF combat and amplify it so it can make a real difference. With that change, TWF characters would need to have a bigger focus on obtaining bonuses to attack rolls, and also sometimes turn off Power Attack when others can still use it.

[Aerendil]

a barbarian that took OTWF should be backhanded all the way back to korthos. Its simply not needed.

additionally, since the introduction of FB, most weapon sets (TWF) are better off being a heavy pick/light pick for everything but raid bosses. And there you're looking at just a difference of slightly less than 10% averaged base damage, or cut that in half agaisnt 50% fort bosses.

heck going from epic -> back to regular gameplay, you can weild the khopeshs w/o the feat and just eat the penalty.

Which is a serious design flaw IMO.
Penalties existed in PnP because they were just that - penalties. They discouraged you (sometimes severely so) if you did something you weren't supposed to.

Being able to reach such ridiculously high stats in DDO that you can ignore penalties simply takes the ****.


As for TWF/ITWF/GTWF/STWF, maybe the feats themselves should be reviewed to make them more friendly without feeling the need to get them ALL.
As others have pointed out, right now if you want to go TWF, it's all or nothing. The difference between a character with just TWF and one with GTWF is *massive*.
However, if it were something like:
- no TWF feats (i.e. untrained) = 100% mainhand / 20% offhand. Penalties of -6 mainhand, -10 offhand.
- TWF = 100%/60%. Penalties reduced to -4 / -4.
- ITWF = 100%/80%. Penalties reduced to -3 / -3.
- GTWF = 100%/100%. Penalties reduced to -2 / -2.
- OTWF = reduces penalties to 0 / 0.
*note that a light weapon in the offhand reduces all of the above by -2 / -2, meaning you would be at a mere -2 / -2 with TWF*

This could make TWF, or even ITWF, viable stopping points if so inclined (and if your stats could handle the penalties) and not require you to go all the way if you didn't want to.
Maybe leave GTWF with an extra attack in the chain to make it desirable to go all that way, but that you could still be viable without it.

[krud]

You're missing the point. A lot more work is involved in TWF for grinding for weapons, and a lot of wasted attribute points (As I've stated, Dex is pretty much the most useless stat to a DPS fighter in most cases, other than Charisma). Lower to-hit (Can make a difference on epic until you're well geared) and more feats need to be taken. Why go through all of that to do the same as you could do with THF without having to pump points into dex, while taking less feats to do well in the style and have a higher to-hit, not to mention get glancing blows.

It puts twf builds at most one bonus point below max (16 vs 18 starting base str). Oh yeah that is HUGE . You are also getting two weapon effects that you can put on your shroud weapons, not to mention the ability to mix and match weapons for different situations. I don't know about you, but I got more than two weapons in my inventory. Having trouble hitting the epic mobs? Wield destruction and improved destruction at the same time for -12 to mob AC. Can a barbarian do that with one weapon? No.
..."b..b.bb..ut the barbarian's gonna steal my kill if I'm destructing them while he's dpsing" .

Turbine has a history of nerfing stuff if that dominates over everything else. TWF has been doing that for quite some time now. Now it'll be just a little better, instead of a lot better. The ones who really should be complaining are the monks and rogues. They get the biggest shaft, not the ranger exploiter builds, et al.

[SteeleTrueheart]

The point is, if STWF was added, any build worth it's salt would have to have it. Not having it would make it gimped.

That is correct. It's a must-have for any TWF specced characters.

It's, more or less, +10% DPS based on Eladrin's OP. It's a lot of DPS and anyone who skips on it will be greatly behind.

You guys are so predictable and thank you for saying what I wanted you to say.

You have just stated quite clearly that without STWF any TWF build is gimp compared to one that does have it. Every non ranger TWF currently has the benefits of STWF in the game as it is now and after this change they will be "gimped" or "greatly behind" as they will not have access to it. Meaning to be an optimum TWF once again you must go ranger.

You complain that STWF would be extremely powerful? That is how much power this nerf is hitting us for. That is why so many people are annoyed.

Nerfing is so annoying after such a long time.

[grodon9999]

Also if you wanna cry about nerfs and etc...just be glad Khopesh is not nerfed to where it should be. 1d8 19-20/2 +4 to trip.

This would have been MUCH more preferable. I'd have made it a big Scimitar though, 1d8 18-20/2, less nerd-rage from this nerf.

Oh yeah by going Ranger...you do not need an uber high DEX for the TWF feats...in fact you get them for free.

You'd be foolish dumping dex on a Ranger.

[MrkGrismer]

I wouldn't mind if the revised numbers are used; giving the offhand a 100% proc rate for Tempest and an 80% for GTWF. However, there is something else that I haven't seen addressed (possibly I missed it). Does the offhand attack only have a chance to 'process' if the main hand hits? Or would the chance be checked regardless of whether or not the main hand hits? There have been a few times when one of my TWF characters have been fighting mixed groups and only one of the two weapons might be effective against one or more of the enemies (either because ghost touch was needed, or adamantium, or blunt v slashing, etc.) so if the offhand never even got a CHANCE to hit simply because the main hand COULDN'T hit, that would be a severe disadvantage in certain situations.

I am still not sure what is being accomplished with this change. Is the % proc considerably less server-intensive then the current system of 'offhand hooks'?

As for 'STWF' (and why not call it 'PTWF'?) I don't think it would be a problem IF we could count on the monsters not getting 'rebalanced' to take it into account. Unfortunately I doubt that would be guaranteed. If it was just a matter of having full off-hand attacks available to full-BAB (or near full, with multiclassing) characters it shouldn't be an issue. But if the 'DM' (developer(s) here) is going to assume that all parties are going to have all characters with 'STWF' then I could see it causing problems. As others have said, outside of the tempest PRE 100% off-hand is 'epic'. It is fine for Tempest because they make a considerable sacrifice to get it. Perhaps the PRE could be opened up to non-rangers, like in PnP (Ftr6, Rgr6, Bbn12, Brd12, Clr12, Drd12, Mnk12, Pal12, Rog12, Sor12, Wiz12.)

[Krag]

You complain that STWF would be extremely powerful?

You miss the point. STWF is not bad because it breaks balance between twf and thf, but because it reduces the number of viable options.

[Gercho]

There's barely a difference now between THF Barbs and TWF Fighters in DPS.

I think the problem here, is that we are comparing twf with the twitching, eSOS using, capstone bugged pure frenzied berzerker... if you compare twf against that, then yes, twf is not overpowered at all, as a matter of fact we could say that is underpowered...
But the reality is that if you compare twf against a thf that doesnt twitch, doesnt has an eSoS and inst not a pure barbarian, then i think twf is overpowered, so for me the solution is, remove the alacrity bug from the barbarian capstone, eliminate twitching somehow, nerf the eSoS, and nerf TWF 10 to 15%, that should keep twf above thf, but the differences wont be so big, and the currently extremely unbalanced thf builds should now be comparable to most the thf builds...

[grodon9999]

A fighter is always going to be expected to be doing as much damage as possible . . .

As a cleric, I find one-dimensional DPS-apes to be boring, I should start letting some of them die so maybe they get a message. I'm not talking Amrath or Epic, everyone gets hit in epic and it's quite difficult to get missed in Amrath. But at 20th level you still should be able to get missed in the vale, it's not that hard to break a 50. I had to baby-sit a bunch of 20th level guys in a vale quest last night, come on people it's 16th level, you shouldn't need constant heals.

If you think a group doing an epic quest, or a ToD run or Shroud or something is looking for an AC build, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

We have a 700+ HP Stalwart in my guild with a raid-buffed 80+ AC, who do you think we call when we need Horoth tanked or Harry/sulu in Elite Shroud/ViD? Sure you can use a barb, and we do on occasion, but our healers thank us when we bring in a real tank.

[Angelus_dead]

Still think the benefit outweighs the cost? Then up the cost.

It could be possible to come up with an increased cost that's balanced against the benefit, but that still would harm the game. The best you could come up with is creating an interesting choice for some kinds of character types, while removing choice and viability from others. It would also make it harder to have balance between characters who can and can't meet that cost (which happens to be quite dependent on how often they've TRed)

As described at length earlier, having a ton of feats which all do the same thing (+X%offhand rate) is not very fun, and spending the majority of 7 feat slots on one thing is less entertaining than spending some of them on other stuff.

To give players more choices by creating more attractive feats is a smart goal. But adding STWF is a poor approach to that goal compared to the alternative of fixing the existing weak feats (or adding new ones):
Slicing Blow- It would be nice if it gave a noticeable DPS increase when fighting single large enemies.
Cleave- It would be nice if it gave a real DPS increase when fighting multiple enemies at once.
Great Cleave, Whirlwind- ditto
Improved Sunder- If it had a choice to debuff the enemy's weapon damage that might be useful.
Improved Feint- What if it were possible for highly-skilled Rogues to continue doing regular DPS even while holding main aggro?
Hamstring- May as well buff it to reduce both movement and attack speed.

Aren't those choices more entertaining than STWF? Yet each of them is probably less powerful than +20% offhand rate would be. To add STWF, even if it was somehow balanced to be a fair and interesting build choice, would still take away feat slots that could have been used to learn stuff that actually makes combat more involved than simply attacking faster and faster.

[SquelchHU]

Who said anything about a ranged attacker???

Aggro mechanics in this game are far from predictable. I've punched an enemy to half health on my monk and lost aggro when a >ranger shot it once with their arrow for a very small amount of damage<. Pulling aggro does not mean you are doing more damage than some other person.

The person you, and I responded to.