Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Therilith]

My argument was more of a generic "Balance problems often happen gradually", but I guess that doesn't apply in this case according to Borror0. Fair enough.

You are ignorant, trolling or both. Over the course of years twf has only seen nothing but nerfs. WoP nerf, blanket immunities to vorpals, etc.

Then why do the devs think it's too powerful?

If you can tell them why they are wrong you might be able to prevent the nerf.

Balance issues, even minor ones, should be addressed asap.

Yeah, but how do you know if it is a balance problem?

If you shouted nerf every time someone else got .1% and you didn't you would either be ignored or nothing would ever get done.

[Krag]

I can tell you when TWF fighting became much more powerful then they were and it most certainly was not a nerf. Shroud...all those proc on hits and proc on crits with the broken kopesh crit milti that is what did it. Anything with a fixed damage reguardless of weapon type benifits twf. Holy, puregood, slicing, force rit, acid, flaming, lightning, radiances light damage, earth grab, etc etc etc. Part 2 was mineral 2 breaking all the DRs. DR that isn't broken helps thf. DR that is broken 99% of the time helps TWF.

So no its really very easy to know when TWF gained power and why and no it was NOT a nerf.

Min II is good... but not as good as transmuting of GEOB.

[Borror0]

You are ignorant, trolling or both. Over the course of years twf has only seen nothing but nerfs. WoP nerf, blanket immunities to vorpals, etc.

You know, you could have just pointed to him that the change to GTWF and the addition of Green Steel, both in Module 6, were the cause of why TWF has become overpowered which is why it's false to claim it happened over the course of several years. It practically happened over night and it didn't take very long for Grenfell to point it out.

[Sinni]

*sigh* so all the complains boil down to the eSoS. Yes, it is overpowered. Yes, Turbine knows about it and admits it. (see this post http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=433 and search for "insanity") And yes, i personally expect it to get nerfed. that's why i always said "let's ignore the epic SoS for now")

btw: if they are to introduce something similar for 1 handed weapons it would probably be an epic deathnip.

[R0cksteady]

It doesn't boil down to it. eSOS puts THF OVER TWF, and my problem is regular weapons being equal to TWF.

[Lyniaer]

The Official Discussion Thread is here.

/ibtl

[R0cksteady]

The Official Discussion Thread is here.

/ibtl

Iw as requesting other changes, not discussing the actual nerf. Other people brought up the discussion of the actual nerf, not me.

[FluffyCalico]

fun fun

[Krag]

Then why do the devs think it's too powerful?

Obviously, because they don't play the game. Otherwise they would know which melee class is most welcome in any party.

[Lighti]

Natashealle, sorry to say it but there never has been any DPS lag in Europe. From what i have seen as ive played you are wrong.

[blitzschlag]

You know, I'm not lying about this.

In an earlier post, Razcar wrote a report about what the dps lag is like in US. Exactly the dps lag as he describes it there can, and does, occur on the European servers, although from Razcar's descriptions and thanx to his clarifications it now seems clear to me that the problem there is not so severe as it is in US.

The symptoms of dps lag as he has described them are identical to symptoms that I have seen on multiple occasions on the European servers.

lol, you clearly don't know what youre talking about. you ever did a shroud on any of the us servers? as a healer?

yeah, right

[Krag]

*sigh* so all the complains boil down to the eSoS. Yes, it is overpowered. Yes, Turbine knows about it and admits it. (see this post http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=433 and search for "insanity") And yes, i personally expect it to get nerfed. that's why i always said "let's ignore the epic SoS for now")

btw: if they are to introduce something similar for 1 handed weapons it would probably be an epic deathnip.

This it 5-th time I read Eladrins post. Not even a word about eSoS nerf. Much less in the next update.

[underlordone]

Lets just fix the game. Remove ranger monk pal rogue. Lets leave fighter wiz sorc clr fav soul and bard for added damage there now your nerfing will be complete. Only have sword bord and thf. Lets not let any one pick what they whant due to it may over power. Thats how I fell about all of this.

I have been playing since opening day of this game seen alot of nerfs go on so worked out some just plane bit's the big one. But from what I under stand of this nerf is that what ever wep is in my off hand will not matter due to it will never be used for fighting only my main hand. If I wrong then I read things wrong. But I like the end build that I have and just don't whant to see it get trashed 18ranger 1 monk 1 wiz. I use warhammer as my weapon. To see any of my dps go will hurt due to I do solo alot and hate waiting for groups to form.

If I am missen the point on this nerf pm. I realy have not read much on this just listen to a lot of player's talk and it's got me all mad.

[SteeleTrueheart]

TWF is still viable.

I am a bit annoyed the Devs have listened to some forumites and decided not to implement STWF. I would like to have an option to reach 100% off hand attacks on one of my builds that is not a ranger. +2 Dex investment and a Feat slot for 20% increase on your off hand attacks seems like a good balance of cost vs rewards.

[Aesop]

Fair point. Post the DPS calculation for a S&B, THF and TWF build for both your proposed change and Eladrin's. That would be a good way to tell.

You realize that no one actually posts accurate DPS calculations now right? They post optimal ones assuming a great many things.

so here you'd just assume optimal conditions and take the average modifier under those optimal conditions. something like +2.5% to which ever Combat Style trigger effect you happen to be basing your calculations off.

THese modifiers that I suggest are to help counter balance the Twitch effect that is so potent currently. You don't like twitch, but the only way you want to fix it is by removing it completely. (judging by inference)

Yet there is a sizable population that actually enjoys twitching. Why completely remove it when you can just reduce its relative effectiveness (which is currently quite high) and make both styles happy? removing Glancing Blows while Moving hurts both standard and twitch. Reducing the Glancing Blows instead reduces effectiveness while leaving movement as a valid combat form.

Aesop

[FluffyCalico]

TWF is still viable.

I am a bit annoyed the Devs have listened to some forumites and decided not to implement STWF. I would like to have an option to reach 100% off hand attacks on one of my builds that is not a ranger. +2 Dex investment and a Feat slot for 20% increase on your off hand attacks seems like a good balance of cost vs rewards.

Correct 3 of them are friends with one of the turbine moderators.

And since 1 of the biggest complaints of fighters is they end up with about 2-3 more feats than they can find good things for this would be good. There should always be more things and more feats and more enhancements that you want than you can take. That way you get to choose and make something the way you want. Right now fighters take all the good feats and then go well what should I make these last 2? cause I dont need 3 toughness feats. They not only should add STWF but about 10 others as well that they are missing so people can have choices and more important NOT have everything.

[Deathseeker]

Has anyone done a comparison of single target DPS of post-nerf TWF fighter to post-nerf THF fighter? Im curious as to how they compare now, but not sure Ive followed all the changes to be capable of an accurate comparison.

Seems to me the loss of glancing blow damage while moving may be important in the comparison, as it could come out that standing still THF is better, but while moving TWF is better. But thats just a guess, not sure thats how it works out.

[Aesop]

Yes its a really good idea to premiere a playstyle which is best implemented using a programmable keyboard which not everyone have access to. Good one.

If it was something that you had to learn and master and it was an actual skill from the player I could agree with the statement above, now it's just lame.

Cheers,
-Daz

... I said an effective way to play... not Twitch should dominate.


I don't have a programmable keyboard so I'm not sure what you really are talking about in this case.


Is it that you don't think Twitch should be a valid playstyle?

Honestly I'm more concerned with Mobile Combat than Twitch, but from what I've read the changes put forth would eliminate Mobile Combat as a valid option. This is in an effort to reduce the effectiveness of Twitch style and since it does require a little more thought and focus I don't think Twitch should be completely invalidated.

Now whether that is a 5%, .5% or 50% effective dps increase or more or less to make it useful without being overpowered I don't really care. It is a style of combat that has a following and that in and of itself should not be ignored. If the Devs had said straight out that Chain Breaking and Twitch style combat is a bug and its going to be fixed someday I personally wouln't care, but as it stands now... People like it

Aesop

[Dazalarian]

..
Is it that you don't think Twitch should be a valid playstyle?

Yes, cause its clearly something that's a side-effect of how the combat system is/was implemented. an Easy fix would be to slow down the first 3 attacks in the THF attack-chain (and speed up the last ones to compensate).

I'm sure there are a bunch of people out there who thinks twitch is a valid intended way of fighting, those people are pretty much the same people who thought that evasion in a full plate was working "as intended".

Cheers,
-Daz

[KillEveryone]

yeah, you can get higher reflex saves with that dex, but you're better off with a better will save anyway, so Wisdom would eb a better choice. Although it's even better to have both strength and Con maxed out, or put those points into intelligence and get more action points. .

I wouldn't say that the Will save is the most important in the game. I haven't noticed many spells that require a will save casted against me. Most spells I've noticed casted have been reflex and then fort saves.

of that, let's talk about those "sacrifices" a TWF has to do. I guess you are talking about the DEX investment and 1 or 2 feats (kopesh and OTWF) compared to THF plus the additional cash expense for 2 weapons. let's assume you end up with the same DPS in the end, what's the difference between those 2 chars? The TWF will have quite a bunch more attacks to apply weapon special effects, higher reflex saves and more slots for special effects (due to 2 weapons). the THF will have con/str/wis/int a little bit higher because he doesn't need that much dex and he'll have the feats and a little bit higher to hit.

over all even with the same dps TWF has still the upper hand imo for the expense of doubled grind (if you want to go dual GS)

Some of those effects will not hit or be as usefull. Since the offhand has a chance at hitting then effects like paralize and vorpal will not be as usefull since the chance of them hitting will be reduced as well and the allowed save for those weapon effects.

A THF is easy to roll. Max CON and STR and you are good to go. You don't need any feats to make it useful. There is no penalty to hit when using a THF weapon. TWF requires at least 1 feat to remove that penalty. The requirement may not be much for a fighter but for a rogue or bard it is alot becasue those classes are feat starved.

I do feel that to TWF there should be some bonus to DPS for building your character that manner. On a THF, if you want to put build points into something else, you can shave a point or 2 off STR and CON and place them somewhere else. A TWF has to have a 15 DEX just to get the feat that removes the penalty. Needs 17 DEX to take any other TWF feat, and if Superior TWF is added, then a TWF will need a 19 DEX to take all the feats. As a TWF you are stuck with adding into DEX no matter what, if you want to actually damage something you also need to add into STR, if you want to survive you need to add into CON. There isn't much left over for any other stat.

AC is mostly useless if you don't have certain gear at certain levels. My fighter is currently stuck with an AC of 40. That isn't very useful for Gianthold or Vale. The reflex save is ok, but with a 17 there isn't really many bonus points into that particular save.

And then yes there is the grind. This game is about the grind. GS is all grind. Named raid loot to help eek out that extra damage for you character is about the grind. This game is grind. My THF bard had to grind out a Min II falchion. That was long enough but for a TWF it is even longer.