Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[DarkFlash]

It is used for auto crit so you do more damage to it. If you just wanted to stop enemies int heir tracks, you take trip. Higher DC, Vertigo, and it lasts longer than stunning blow.

Auto-crits + cant do anything = You can move to the next monster that is bashing your clerics brains out.
If you use trip (that I have NEVER seen any1 use), it takes ages to kill the monster. Play as a monk and you will understand...

[R0cksteady]

If the Dex requirement and the to-hit loss is insignificant, why not just drop them?

instead of forcing me to take points into Dex when I'd rather put them in Con/Int or even Wisdom for will saves, why not drop the requirements so TWF isn't more costly than THF for the same DPS.

[Swedishchef]

I don't believe the EU servers got the super slow attack. We got that with the release of DDO:EU (wow, thats confusing naming) and then it disappeared before "mod 9" was release in Europe...I think.

Eruhm, what are you talking about?

I was talking aboiut people joing the U.S servers with a history from Europe or Asia that had a join date 2005-200X on their boards.
So saying someone don´t know what they are talking about bc join date dosen´t make any sense what so ever.

Anyway i might have missunderstood you bc iu do not know what your on about.

Soz for OT

[samthedagger]

That there are 150 pages to this discussion in only four days should be a hint as to the widespread effect this change would have.

I understand the issues with DPS lag, but nerfing TWF is clearly not going to make many people happy.

[R0cksteady]

Auto-crits + cant do anything = You can move to the next monster that is bashing your clerics brains out.
If you use trip (that I have NEVER seen any1 use), it takes ages to kill the monster. Play as a monk and you will understand...

You've NEVER seen someone use trip? It's very common, as it's DC is higher than Stunning Blow.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Melee DPS does not exist in a vacuum. Balance problems often happen gradually with no one change responsible. They can't just look at a list of recent changes and go "Oh, this is what caused it. We'll just revert it and everything will be fine."

Oh come on, don't be naive. The min-maxers find the "ultimate" build taking advantage of a new change almost immediately. It's very rare that something like that will creep up on you.

[Bacab]

Actually for crowd control...Improved Trip is really the best.

To your "play a MNK and you'll understand". The OP can reply "Play a Fighter and you will understand" (tripping)

My earlier point is fighters have the ability to do many things. They can fill so many more rolls in a party (compared to a Barb).

Usually only fighters have improved trip due to the pre-reqs for it. The one thing I like about fighters is their ability to do things like trip and etc due to the glut of feats.

[DarkFlash]

You've NEVER seen someone use trip? It's very common, as it's DC is higher than Stunning Blow.

Ok, i have seen trip being used.... in lvls 1-6!

EDIT: Maybe its because 99% of the fighters in Ghallanda are those must-have-max-DPS players. (And the 1% of the trip users are tanking the boss.)

[R0cksteady]

Actually for crowd control...Improved Trip is really the best.

To your "play a MNK and you'll understand". The OP can reply "Play a Fighter and you will understand" (tripping)

My earlier point is fighters have the ability to do many things. They can fill so many more rolls in a party (compared to a Barb).

Usually only fighters have improved trip due to the pre-reqs for it. The one thing I like about fighters is their ability to do things like trip and etc due to the glut of feats.

Now think if they dropped the unneeded dex requirement and you wouldn't have to sacrifice much to get that 13 intelligence to take Improved trip and the pre-reqs.

[Krag]

How do you come to the conclusion that THF deals more damage than TWF to a single enemy even without twitching? As i told you, forget about epic sos. And if that's the only thing that counts to you then you won't need to get your GS ings back anyway because an epic sos doesn't require them.

They have announced a nerf to twf, noe esos. For all I know they have overdid it but won't go back.

you ask why anyone wouldn't make the highest dps char possible? well, why are not all dps chars you see on the server exactely the same? i doubt that behaviour would change

Same reason I see Sorc10/FvS10 builds coupled with creation date. You know, there used to be a few decent special effects: WoP, WoE, Vorpals - none of which work in epic.

on top of that, let's talk about those "sacrifices" a TWF has to do. I guess you are talking about the DEX investment and 1 or 2 feats (kopesh and OTWF) compared to THF plus the additional cash expense for 2 weapons. let's assume you end up with the same DPS in the end, what's the difference between those 2 chars? The TWF will have quite a bunch more attacks to apply weapon special effects, higher reflex saves and more slots for special effects (due to 2 weapons). the THF will have con/str/wis/int a little bit higher because he doesn't need that much dex and he'll have the feats and a little bit higher to hit.

Against trash THF have glancing blows which results in more DPS. Special effects were obsoleted by epic wards and boss immunities.

over all even with the same dps TWF has still the upper hand imo for the expense of doubled grind (if you want to go dual GS)

Meh. TWF barely pulls its own weight.
Who is tanking Horoth? Barbarian with eSoS
Who is meleeing Lailat? Barbarian with eSoS
Who can combine best selfhealing with great DPS? FvS with eSoS

Nerf eSoS or add equally powerful/available one-hander and we shall talk about TWF superiority.

Comments

[Therilith]

Oh come on, don't be naive. The min-maxers find the "ultimate" build taking advantage of a new change almost immediately. It's very rare that something like that will creep up on you.

Think I'll quote myself on this:

Balance problems often happen gradually with no one change responsible.

I doubt the devs have decided ahead of time that a (for example) 5% DPS difference under certain conditions is fine, but 5.1% is too much.
Who cares if the min-maxers got another .1% from some minor tweak or slightly unbalanced new weapon until you take a step back and realize that something has grown too powerful over the course of several years.

[Dim_Mak]

I just hope that this nerf won't have a huge impact on my favorite MONK build. I mean
Hours of gaming, farming, investing points..buying tomes..for what?
I jsut hope the nerf won0t happen.

[Borror0]

Anyone else see a problem with that? Its turbines usual x is broken so lets break y also instead of fixing x.

"You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" would a good sentence to keep in mind when changes are made. Another good one would be "The perfect is the enemy of the better." While there will be flaws created when a change is made, it does not mean things are not improving. If you cannot handle the fact that somethings will get worse while others improve, you won't ever change anything because all is interwoven.

If the Dex requirement and the to-hit loss is insignificant, why not just drop them?

That would be homogenization. At that point, THF and TWF would have no differentiating factor: both would have lost cost and grant the same DPS. Other than aesthetics (and grinding time, if that is not addressed), there would be no difference between them. It's better to take the reverse path, lower THF's cost and give TWF something other than DPS worth the greater cost.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

The Zeal,Tempest got screwed. The difference between that and a pure build was actually pretty small, if I remember correctly.

Well they do get 110%/90% whereas a pure pally get 110%/80%. They do lose KoC3 and capstone, but that's not new. I guess you're right, +10% on offhand looks like a bad trade off for KoC3 + capstone.

[Sinni]

Trips DC is only higher than stunning blow if you have improved trip. and vertigo can come on any type of weapon instead of weighted that is only available on blunt (but has a passive stun chance). the main difference is not the DC but that trip is against str/dex modifier and stunning blow against a fort save where as the save is generally much higher.
and iirc trip only last longer than stunning blow if you take improved trip (which on top of the +4 dc also cuts down the cooldown from 15 to 10 seconds). but there is a possiblility for the monster to get back on it's feet every few seconds by rolling balance against your trip DC. on top of that some monsters have additional bonuses against trip for their size or having more than 2 legs.

stunning blow is a tool for burst dps and to halt an enemy in what it's doing. i agree if you stun a monster you should proceed and kill it as the killing is vastly speeded up, but it isn't "just higher dps", it is burst damage.

if you take improved trip, which costs you 2 feats and requires 13 int (-> barbarians will hardly ever have it, so we have one example about fighter versitality here) is an immensely useful tool. you can take out a caster for an entire fight and deal with him in the end. after 10 seconds you can take out a second one. it even works pretty well on orthons in amrath to take them out of a fight for several seconds, without vertigo weapons. and it's usable on monsters where where stunning blow won't work (undead excluding ghosts, constructs. stunning blow works on mephits and beholders where as trip doesn't)

[Bacab]

Oh and to the OP, what I meant about playing different toons...a lotta people play just melees and whatnot.

I am like you. I have different toons that do different things. If my melee DPS guy got nerfed I could see getting annoyed with it. I really believe 2WF will still be fine. Just maybe not quite as good as before.

Every game goes through periods of nerfing/balancing/re-balancing.

I am currently planning on TRing my WF FVS into a WF PLD (after I get an Epic SoS lol). IF I go through all the trouble of upgrading this weapon and then TRing into a PLD so I can bypass DR...and then Turbine nerfs the ESOS (they really should). I would be just as peaved as you.

[Krag]

I doubt the devs have decided ahead of time that a (for example) 5% DPS difference under certain conditions is fine, but 5.1% is too much.
Who cares if the min-maxers got another .1% from some minor tweak or slightly unbalanced new weapon until you take a step back and realize that something has grown too powerful over the course of several years.

You are ignorant, trolling or both. Over the course of years twf has only seen nothing but nerfs. WoP nerf, blanket immunities to vorpals, etc.

[R0cksteady]

Oh and to the OP, what I meant about playing different toons...a lotta people play just melees and whatnot.

I am like you. I have different toons that do different things. If my melee DPS guy got nerfed I could see getting annoyed with it. I really believe 2WF will still be fine. Just maybe not quite as good as before.

Every game goes through periods of nerfing/balancing/re-balancing.

I am currently planning on TRing my WF FVS into a WF PLD (after I get an Epic SoS lol). IF I go through all the trouble of upgrading this weapon and then TRing into a PLD so I can bypass DR...and then Turbine nerfs the ESOS (they really should). I would be just as peaved as you.

I guess it just bothers me a lot because I spent a LOT of time working on my fighter (My first and main toon) making him do as good DPS as I could possibly do. Hell, i reincarnated it just to increase it a bit and switch to a WF. now to think I could have a character that does more DPS, have higher HP, and use two handers instead of one handers, it just bothers the **** out of me.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Who cares if the min-maxers got another .1% from some minor tweak or slightly unbalanced new weapon until you take a step back and realize that something has grown too powerful over the course of several years.

That's the problem, if you don't care about the little things, the big problems creep up later and then you a get forum full of angry people...

Balance issues, even minor ones, should be addressed asap. Nerfing after years have passed is bad.

And just because I like this one I'll post it again:

[FluffyCalico]

You are ignorant, trolling or both. Over the course of years twf has only seen nothing but nerfs. WoP nerf, blanket immunities to vorpals, etc.

I can tell you when TWF fighting became much more powerful then they were and it most certainly was not a nerf. Shroud...all those proc on hits and proc on crits with the broken kopesh crit milti that is what did it. Anything with a fixed damage reguardless of weapon type benifits twf. Holy, puregood, slicing, force rit, acid, flaming, lightning, radiances light damage, earth grab, etc etc etc. Part 2 was mineral 2 breaking all the DRs. DR that isn't broken helps thf. DR that is broken 99% of the time helps TWF.

So no its really very easy to know when TWF gained power and why and no it was NOT a nerf.