Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[R0cksteady]

Maybe in epic AC is useless, but my fighter takes far less damage than a Barbarian while doing just as much damage. Intimidating also helps the rest of the melee folks do even more damage.

Then again, who cares about how much damage you take, right?

I can guarantee you're not doing as much DPS as any decent barbarian or decent fighter if you've spent enough on AC to be good on high level content (Amarath, Epic).

[Sinni]

I know twitch fighting benefits THF, not TWF. i was saying that was the reason THF did almost as much damage as TWF. Which is **** in the first place, since you give up a lot to go TWF.

Sure, removing glancing blows while moving will lower some DPS on two handers. but when Two handers are doing more damage to a single enemy anyway, why does it matter if it's doing even more damage since it has glancing blows? Sure, it's getting nerfed a bit, but against a single enemy THF will be on top, and against crowds, if you're not twitching you'll be doing more damage because of glancing blows, and if you are twitching you'll be doing more damage tot hat single enemy than a TWF anyway.

So how is this balance? why would ANYONE be a TWF fighter than a THF barb when Barbs do more damage with less sacrafice and work involved? Twitching is hardly a skill, it takes about 30 seconds to perfect once you're told how it's done.

How do you come to the conclusion that THF deals more damage than TWF to a single enemy even without twitching? As i told you, forget about epic sos. And if that's the only thing that counts to you then you won't need to get your GS ings back anyway because an epic sos doesn't require them.

you ask why anyone wouldn't make the highest dps char possible? well, why are not all dps chars you see on the server exactely the same? i doubt that behaviour would change

on top of that, let's talk about those "sacrifices" a TWF has to do. I guess you are talking about the DEX investment and 1 or 2 feats (kopesh and OTWF) compared to THF plus the additional cash expense for 2 weapons. let's assume you end up with the same DPS in the end, what's the difference between those 2 chars? The TWF will have quite a bunch more attacks to apply weapon special effects, higher reflex saves and more slots for special effects (due to 2 weapons). the THF will have con/str/wis/int a little bit higher because he doesn't need that much dex and he'll have the feats and a little bit higher to hit.

over all even with the same dps TWF has still the upper hand imo for the expense of doubled grind (if you want to go dual GS)

[Razcar]

The monster was rendered pointless when Fighters were given capstones.

I agree that nerf to tempest rogues is too much, especially since so much DPS comes from sneak attacks.

That's not true. While a 20 level fighter did have higher DPS than the Monster, it was only 1-2 %. Against 50% Fort they were identical. Granted against FE.
Monsters got Evasion, higher AC and Manyshot. The fighter capstone got equalised against Tempest 1 TWF alacrity.

After this nerf the Monster is of course pointless. And the Ravager.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

After this nerf the Monster is of course pointless. And the Ravager.

And the grandfathered 14 barb/6 ranger.
And the 14 pally/6 ranger.

EDIT: Never mind, brain farted here. Those might actually still work.

[R0cksteady]

How do you come to the conclusion that THF deals more damage than TWF to a single enemy even without twitching? As i told you, forget about epic sos. And if that's the only thing that counts to you then you won't need to get your GS ings back anyway because an epic sos doesn't require them.

you ask why anyone wouldn't make the highest dps char possible? well, why are not all dps chars you see on the server exactely the same? i doubt that behaviour would change

on top of that, let's talk about those "sacrifices" a TWF has to do. I guess you are talking about the DEX investment and 1 or 2 feats (kopesh and OTWF) compared to THF plus the additional cash expense for 2 weapons. let's assume you end up with the same DPS in the end, what's the difference between those 2 chars? The TWF will have quite a bunch more attacks to apply weapon special effects, higher reflex saves and more slots for special effects (due to 2 weapons). the THF will have con/str/wis/int a little bit higher because he doesn't need that much dex and he'll have the feats and a little bit higher to hit.

over all even with the same dps TWF has still the upper hand imo for the expense of doubled grind (if you want to go dual GS)

1 or 2 feats? You're to-hit goes down, even if you take OTWF. yeah, you can get higher reflex saves with that dex, but you're better off with a better will save anyway, so Wisdom would eb a better choice. Although it's even better to have both strength and Con maxed out, or put those points into intelligence and get more action points. And no, I never said THF would do as much as TWF without twitch. That's why i'm saying get rid of twitch, and keep that DPS a bit above THF.

Sure, you get more weapon effects, but end game you don't use them far as often as you go for straight up DPS.

[catscan420]

I can guarantee you're not doing as much DPS as any decent barbarian or decent fighter if you've spent enough on AC to be good on high level content (Amarath, Epic).

OMG, you're right. There's nothing more to this game than DPS!

[Therilith]

1. If you are careful you can avoid the power creep.

If you are careful = If you never make any mistakes ever

[Bacab]

Being a "tank".

Quit being close minded.

With your dual Shroud Khopesh...guesswhat...

If you re-spec into a tank, you can use a Shield AND one of your Khopesh. A THF that becomes a tank can't use its greataxe or falchion and use a shield.

Barb's SHOULD do more DPS. They are the most un-self-sufficient class in the game.

Also if you wanna cry about nerfs and etc...just be glad Khopesh is not nerfed to where it should be. 1d8 19-20/2 +4 to trip.

Is the TWF a nerf? Sure it is. You are just mad your build is not as powerful as before (understandable). But hopping on the forums to rehash something that has been said before 100 times and then making statements like "What else can a Fighter do other than DPS?" Makes you looks extremely noobish and unskilled.

This has happened before. Barbs got the WoP/Crit Rage nerf. They got the curse pot nerf.

BTW you have another option if you want to TR...go Ranger and use those Greensteel Khopesh. You do not have to go Barb. Heck maybe try a caster out. You may like it.

Oh yeah by going Ranger...you do not need an uber high DEX for the TWF feats...in fact you get them for free.

[R0cksteady]

OMG, you're right. There's nothing more to this game than DPS!

I never said that. But it is the most important thing for a fighter to be doing at high levels. Sorry if you're looking for more, if that's the case, roll something else. That's what casters/healers/bards/utility builds are for.

A fighter is always going to be expected to be doing as much damage as possible. If you think a group doing an epic quest, or a ToD run or Shroud or something is looking for an AC build, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

If you are careful = If you never make any mistakes ever

And thus I refer you to the second argument in that post.

First make sure that you make as few mistakes as possible. If you then find a mistake, don't take a year to fix it.

[Sinni]

you ask what versitality is on a melee? it's not using the same weapon all the time (GS/Vorpal) but to adapt to your situation. it's using stunning blow, it's using (improved) trip, maybe even sunder. it's quickdraw, it's dragonmarks, it's intimidate, it's the possibility to reach decent AC even without speccing for it (my DPS/tactical falchion kensai in europe could reach AC and intimidate to decently tank orthons in VoD on lvl 16).

it's not all about DPS on a fighter.


and about "uber builds", i mean those multi class builds that try to get the best out of everywhere. at least in europe the most prominent example was "the monster"

[R0cksteady]

Being a "tank".

Quit being close minded.

With your dual Shroud Khopesh...guesswhat...

If you re-spec into a tank, you can use a Shield AND one of your Khopesh. A THF that becomes a tank can't use its greataxe or falchion and use a shield.

Barb's SHOULD do more DPS. They are the most un-self-sufficient class in the game.

Also if you wanna cry about nerfs and etc...just be glad Khopesh is not nerfed to where it should be. 1d8 19-20/2 +4 to trip.

Is the TWF a nerf? Sure it is. You are just mad your build is not as powerful as before (understandable). But hopping on the forums to rehash something that has been said before 100 times and then making statements like "What else can a Fighter do other than DPS?" Makes you looks extremely noobish and unskilled.

This has happened before. Barbs got the WoP/Crit Rage nerf. They got the curse pot nerf.

BTW you have another option if you want to TR...go Ranger and use those Greensteel Khopesh. You do not have to go Barb. Heck maybe try a caster out. You may like it.

Oh yeah by going Ranger...you do not need an uber high DEX for the TWF feats...in fact you get them for free.

I have a caster, and a cleric, and a FS, and a Bard. Also, if they go through with STWF Fighters will be doing more damage with TWF than rangers anyway.

Also LOL at suggesting sword and board. First of all, if you go sword and board, Kopeshes are gimp, since BS and DAs have glancing blows after the next update. Not to mention there are like, 4 quests in the game where a tank is anywhere near as useful as a DPS character.

[R0cksteady]

you ask what versitality is on a melee? it's not using the same weapon all the time (GS/Vorpal) but to adapt to your situation. it's using stunning blow, it's using (improved) trip, maybe even sunder. it's quickdraw, it's dragonmarks, it's intimidate, it's the possibility to reach decent AC even without speccing for it (my DPS/tactical falchion kensai in europe could reach AC and intimidate to decently tank orthons in VoD on lvl 16).

it's not all about DPS on a fighter.


and about "uber builds", i mean those multi class builds that try to get the best out of everywhere. at least in europe the most prominent example was "the monster"

Stunning blow is just another way to increase DPS. obviously my fighter has it (Or did, before I stupidly reincarnated it, which I wouldn't have done if I had known it was getting nerfed). Why is that a discussion? Barbs take it too, and get a much higher DC.

[Borror0]

Yeah, but when things are already balanced, why only nerf one side? Either power up, or nerf both sides.

Things were not balanced. With the sole exception of the ESoS, TWF would always deal more damage than THF.

You might be tempted to say it costs more so it should be more powerful. While the cost is technically more, it is not significant for certain builds. It might be a bit tough for a paladin to reach the necessary Dex but it's pretty easy for a fighter or a barbarian - especially when tomes are involved. For as long as the cost are insignificant to certain builds or classes, the cost cannot be effectively used to claim that it's balanced as, in certain situations, it won't be.

You might be tempted to say it requires more grinding but that's approaching the issue from the wrong side. It's not the reward that is inappropriate; it's the grinding. Different fighting style should all have similar grinding time. It's not acceptable for a style to have to grind significantly longer for its weapons.

You might be tempted to say it has a penalty to to-hit but that is barely significant.

The reality is that DPS is inherently overpowered in a video game. Players always get the minimum amount of protection they need and then make as much DPS fit in as possible. Time is money as they say or, in the context of DDO, loot and XP. If a fighting style is given more DPS, it will be the preferred fighting style for that reason alone which is why DPS fighting style should have comparable DPS and be different for reasons that are not DPS.

Here is what they could do, as an example:
1. Equalize the grinding time for all fighting styles.
2. Make the DPS of all DPS fighting styles close to one another. In doubt, err on the side of caution and give TWF a little more DPS than THF (~5%) to account for any possible error you might make when balancing gear or attractiveness.
3. Make the benefits of the THF feats inherent to THF and remove the THF feats.
4. Give something that is not DPS to TWF that is worth three feats and several creation points.

First make sure that you make as few mistakes as possible. If you then find a mistake, don't take a year to fix it.

Several major balance issues have been around for years, which is why that position is currently not applicable.

[DarkFlash]

Stunning blow is just another way to increase DPS. obviously my fighter has it (Or did, before I stupidly reincarnated it, which I wouldn't have done if I had known it was getting nerfed). Why is that a discussion? Barbs take it too, and get a much higher DC.

Stunning blow is one of the tools that are used to stop enemies from butchering squishy teammates.
Pure DPS boost? Dont make me laugh.

[R0cksteady]

Stunning blow is one of the tools that are used to stop enemies from butchering squishy teammates.
Pure DPS boost? Dont make me laugh.

It is used for auto crit so you do more damage to it. If you just wanted to stop enemies int heir tracks, you take trip. Higher DC, Vertigo, and it lasts longer than stunning blow.

[Borror0]

And the grandfathered 14 barb/6 ranger.
And the 14 pally/6 ranger.

EDIT: Never mind, brain farted here. Those might actually still work.

The Zeal,Tempest got screwed. The difference between that and a pure build was actually pretty small, if I remember correctly.

[Therilith]

And thus I refer you to the second argument in that post.

First make sure that you make as few mistakes as possible. If you then find a mistake, don't take a year to fix it.

Melee DPS does not exist in a vacuum. Balance problems often happen gradually with no one change responsible. They can't just look at a list of recent changes and go "Oh, this is what caused it. We'll just revert it and everything will be fine."

[FluffyCalico]

You might be tempted to say it has a penalty to to-hit but that is barely significant.

So because to hit is broken except in epic mode they are nerfing twf dps? Anyone else see a problem with that? Its turbines usual x is broken so lets break y also instead of fixing x.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Several major balance issues have been around for years, which is why that position is currently not applicable.

You're right. I probably should have added that if you are fixing it after a long time, don't fix it with a nerf. Power creep is better at this point imo.