Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Aesop]

Then there will be some other way that non rangers will be able to get 100% off hand attacks?

Unlikely... I mean Tempest is supposed to be the supreme twf.

They may make it so you can get close but I would hope that the benefit of tempest wouldn't be negated completely

Aesop

[Averroes]

Is it 2h twitch that should be fixed or is it unarmed/single weapon/2wf that should be fixed to be twitchable though?

Trying to maximize twitch and have a dynamic moving combat would be more fun than standing still and holding auto attack, would it not?

After all, it's closer to PnP!

And then...when they move mobs attacks to the end of the animation...again...and sync them to intervals that go hand in hand with the attack cycles of the players...twitch like a butterfly, sting like a pre-nerf WoP rapier

Two-handed twitch really is fun. I find my THF characters much more engaging, all else being equal, than my TWF characters simply because of the twitch mechanic.

The positioning aspects of combat are signficantly de-emphasized as we increase in levels. I think the corresponding increase in the value of twitch (the percentage gain in constant, but the value of the DPS increase is much more significant when fighting an end-game boss, say, than when fighting a cr7 ogre) is a perfectly appropriate counterweight, whether intentional or not, and one that should be kept. Movement and its timing are important components of low-level survivability, but almost totally irrelevant in raids and epic content (other than, of course, to stay behind the boss) -- replacing one challenge with another is better than just losing one.

Don't get me wrong: making the correct sequence of keystrokes to twich over and over again isn't nearly as much fun as dodging a lightning bolt or a searing light on a lowbie, jumping out of an ice storm that you see being cast, or circle-strafing a wolf so that it can't trip you, but it is an awful lot more fun than not moving at all, holding down the attack button, and mashing something like divine sacrifice every two seconds.

So, I would be thrilled if all combat styles were adjusted such that there was some noticeable and similar attack speed benefit to twitching -- and a corresponding drawback (THF lose glancing blows, from 75% to 50% currently, in addition to the reduced attack bonus). Ideally, the benefit of twitch should be small -- ~10% of single-target total -- but appreciable, so that the few people who really care about such things are motivated to do it.

Even if no changes were made to the other styles than an adjustment of their speed so that using the corresponding swing animations that a THF would use yielded a straight 10% attack rate increase, I think it would instantly make combat with those styles more engaging. At that point, it might become a minor challenge to manage twiching on your light-side monk while cylcing 5 or 6 ki strikes as they cooldown and a finisher every now and then.

Then, bring the styles all much closer together in overall dps -- a spread where the style with the highest dps does more than double that of the style with the lowest is simply too broad unless there's a compelling reason to use the latter style.

I think those two things would make combat significantly more engaging, especially at end-game.



TL:dr Please don't remove glancing blows from THF twitch; instead change other styles to benefit from twitch. Twitch is fun, engaging, good.

[Aesop]

TL:dr Please don't remove glancing blows from THF twitch; instead change other styles to benefit from twitch. Twitch is fun, engaging, good.

for you... some people really don't like it.

I'm in neither camp myself. Sometimes I do sometimes I don't.

I think Twitch should be an effective way to play and eek out that last bit of DPS, but it currently dominates the style. Gianing something like a 25% increase in effective DPS isn't gaining a benefit it is curb stompling anyuone that doesn't do it.

Somewhere a bit lower on the stomp o meter would be good. Make it effective and a benefit without decimating the competition

Aesop

[Averroes]

Make it [twitch] effective and a benefit without decimating the competition

Aesop

Absolutely. Very few people do it now; those same people would still do it for a 10% benefit, and would also do it on their TWF characters...

Similarly, TWF and THF should provide benefits over swoard and board, and TWF over THF, and so forth, but they don't need to be of anything like their current magnitude.


I think the ideal solution, in any event, would be to use "fixing the dps lag" as the justification to do a complete combat balance and polish pass, wherein side issues like the merit of twitching or not could be addressed directly.

[Borror0]

/snip

That's too complex. It would make just too many things to remember. Currently, after a while playing, a knowledgeable player will know what each type of build more or less has. You're raising the difficulty on that task for quite a lot, for very little in exchange.

Worse, in some cases, your suggestion will make calculation DPS a nightmare, such as the varying proc rate depending on where in the attack sequence you're at. DDO is already a complex game. It does not need to be made more complex.

You're also taking away the uniqueness of the bonus. Tempest feels more special if it's the only class to have above 80% offhand proc rate - or at least is among the few - than if everyone has a little here and there. It does not really need such a nerf in comparison to other DPS classes nor does other PrEs need a buff versus Tempest. The only problems with Tempest are that it's a little too frontloaded and that Tempest II was meh. Both are being addressed in Eladrin's proposed change.

[Borror0]

I think Twitch should be an effective way to play

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "twitching" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

The best I could come up with, personally, is this:
"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Oscillation Acceleration.' Whenever a character moves slightly back and forth, he gains a +10% bonus to attack speed that it cannot have if standing still. Despite being counterintuitive and a bit goofy, I think it would be good for the game because it rewards players with the skills and patience to perform this overly repetitive act, over and over again. Gameplay test will show that most players don't like it, but they are not the targeted demographic. It's aimed at very hardcore players, who will like being special - having both the patience and skill to do something most would not do."

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

[Consumer]

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

Sucks to be a casual player then, I very much enjoy twitching.

[BlackSteel]

Sucks to be a casual player then, I very much enjoy twitching.

ditto

I cant stand auto attack, and only do so when typing in chat while semi-afk high HP non dangerous mobs.

atleast twitching with or without glancing blows will still be more worthwhile on autocrit mobs. which is 90% (warning made up number) of end game situations

[darkrhavyn]

Ive been trying to keep up with the thread and the arguments....stilln somewhatn confused and suspect we all will be until this goes onto a server where we can actually check it out.

An couple of thoughts (bearing in mind I dont play melees much...been around since 06 and am just now leveling a barbarian and a "Batgirl" TWF)

Everyone, even Eladrin, realizes this is a major change to the combat mechanics of a game that almost uniformly has won players over BECAUSE it's combat action was so different and exciting from typical MMOs.---is that really a good move?

140 + pages of calculations ---and my first thoughts were ok--initial numbers would have killed the game--revised are probably livable for fighters w/ the TWF lines and rangers (who get them for free)---but rogues and any other class that used two weapon fighting w/ weapon finesse seem to be hurt the most as they are the classes LEAST likely to have enough feats to get much past TWF or the BAB even if they have the feats --arcane multi-classes ?, bard? FvS?

My experience with this game has been thus...a problem is noted....decision made to take action....drastic changes made which radically alter the status quo....everyone screams DOOOOOOOOm.....people either learn to live with it or leave. Example: evasion in heavy armor, dungeon alerts, grazing hits, mass immunities.....in the long run we either adapt or we quit playing. Question is: if people who have played for multiple years can't deal with the combat changes....is DDO still going to draw new players in because of its combat ?

[Aesop]

That's too complex. It would make just too many things to remember. Currently, after a while playing, a knowledgeable player will know what each type of build more or less has. You're raising the difficulty on that task for quite a lot, for very little in exchange.

Worse, in some cases, your suggestion will make calculation DPS a nightmare, such as the varying proc rate depending on where in the attack sequence you're at. DDO is already a complex game. It does not need to be made more complex.

You're also taking away the uniqueness of the bonus. Tempest feels more special if it's the only class to have above 80% offhand proc rate - or at least is among the few - than if everyone has a little here and there. It does not really need such a nerf in comparison to other DPS classes nor does other PrEs need a buff versus Tempest. The only problems with Tempest are that it's a little too frontloaded and that Tempest II was meh. Both are being addressed in Eladrin's proposed change.

Honestly I don't think its that complicated. There are factors involved in combat that we don't have full control over and the Triggered Effects help add those in without changing much of what people have to actually do. There are already effects built in that these modifiers can attach to.

Tempest should be the supreme twf but that does not mean that they should be the only twf. THe problem I'm seeing is that PrEs are still being used to balance classes and that is not a good thing. Eladrin also does not address any of the other Combat Styles other than a proposed nerf to Glancing Blows which is a more direct nerf to Twitch style. People who are into Twitch claim it is a lot of fun for them.

and I just realized I'm getting a little tired and am losingtrack of what I'm trying to say

maybe I'll try again later

Aesop

[Ollathir]

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

I don't know, sort of reminds me of, "now hit left, right, up, down, down on the controller then attack. Special attack number 2 is Up, down, left, left, right.

[Aesop]

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

I did say an effective way to play... not the only way to play nor did I say super mefga awesome way to overpower standard combat

If someone wants to put a lot of effort into their combat they should get something back... wouldn't you say. Now perhaps Twitch does look a little silly with the rocking back and forth motion as it stands and its current output is too great but if you tone it down slightly and have benefits for both twitch and non twitch then both groups would be happy... well human nature says no, but you can try to make everyone happy

Aesop

[Calebro]

Aesop
I think Twitch should be an effective way to play

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "twitching" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

The best I could come up with, personally, is this:
"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Oscillation Acceleration.' Whenever a character moves slightly back and forth, he gains a +10% bonus to attack speed that it cannot have if standing still. Despite being counterintuitive and a bit goofy, I think it would be good for the game because it rewards players with the skills and patience to perform this overly repetitive act, over and over again. Gameplay test will show that most players don't like it, but they are not the targeted demographic. It's aimed at very hardcore players, who will like being special - having both the patience and skill to do something most would not do."

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

Ummm.... I'm pretty sure the 10% is off, but beyond the actual numbers, this is exactly what twitching does right now.
That's kind of the entire point behind doing it.

*edit:
Unless that was your point

[Aesop]

ditto

I cant stand auto attack, and only do so when typing in chat while semi-afk high HP non dangerous mobs.

atleast twitching with or without glancing blows will still be more worthwhile on autocrit mobs. which is 90% (warning made up number) of end game situations

Perosnally I will circle attack instead of twitch attacking whenever I can. I like to think (despite the truth) that I can throw off a few of the opponents attacks by dodging them

Aesop

[BlackSteel]

Perosnally I will circle attack instead of twitch attacking whenever I can. I like to think (despite the truth) that I can throw off a few of the opponents attacks by dodging them

Aesop

certainly, twitching gives a nice opportunity to reposition, flank, use the mob as an obstacle, or prevent a cleaving attack from hitting you or others.

[Aesop]

certainly, twitching gives a nice opportunity to reposition, flank, use the mob as an obstacle, or prevent a cleaving attack from hitting you or others.

yeah but that's not really the Twitchy Shuffle that a lot of folks do. They just kinda toggle forward and back or side to side.

[Gratch]

Unlikely... I mean Tempest is supposed to be the supreme twf.
Aesop

I have a current argument for you. Handwrap wind stance monks swing faster on live than tempest rangers.


Ya know... since Tempest has no dex requirements beyond 13 of it's requisite feats. I wouldn't mind if they did add STWF as a fighter-only high level feat. Why should clumsy oaf rangers (comparing 13 dex vs 17 or 19 req of the STWF feat) get all the off-hand attacks?

And though I agree with some of the "but then clerics/mages/rogues/bards/FVS" would be gimped w/o that feat - with the revised changes they're at 80% w. GTWF. Why is it bad to allow a fighter that stat-sacrifices to get the high dex to also have all the off-hand ratio? Mostly I just want to give fighter more choices for their often wasted total number of feats at end game.

Ftr 20 would be able to attain Kensai 3 + capstone (doublestrike) + 100% off-hand + Weap Spec.

Ranger 18+ would still have Tempest 3 (doublestrike/AC/OffHand 100%) + FEnemy + MultiEnemyManyShot.

Mostly I just want to rehash STWF if it was proposed as fighter-only. Would that cause an instant respec of all TWF Fighters to get the 19 base dex at the cost of (probably con)...

This is coming from the park of someone that deleted their pure fighter back when the cap was 14 ... as it was just boring... and I needed the slot.

[Deamus]

Just to clarify .... the numbers used were purely examples and not meant to be an accurate representation as I have no idea as to the numbers of users online involved.

Maybe if I rephrase .... the points I wanted to make were.

1. LAG and Packet loss are directly related to network traffic within the ISP (or the Internet in general) or at the DDO hosting site (i.e their Internet connection) If they have a 500Mb connection and 700Mb of traffic is trying to pass through that point you will get LAG or Packet loss depending what method of rate limiting their ISP uses to restrict them to 500Mb. The ISP will either delay sending the extra 200M by storing it in buffers = LAG or they drop the extra 200M = packet loss.

2. Code has a limit on how efficient it can be made. (NOTE if you are NOT changing any functionality!!) 10 tasks in 100 lines of code ... if you still have the same 10 tasks in 80 lines of code then it is more efficient code. If you have 8 tasks in 100 lines of code or 80 lines of code then it is different code not more efficient code. (which I am sure can be argued but the point is don't confuse rewriting the same code more efficiently with rewriting code with less functionality.)

3. If you increase the number of users and the code remains the same you will reach a point were the servers become the bottleneck.

This is a plain and simple networking issue. Reducing the amount of network traffic and or CPU processes by simplifying TWF is one way of addressing it. It does seem like the cheapest way for Turbine (utilising salaried staff to change code which is zero additional cost for them) but unfortunately it's the one that will upset the most people.

IT problems are best solved by changing one thing at a time and remeasuring the results. Scattergun approaches invariably lead to creating new issues while often not resolving the original ones.

It would be fascinating to know if Turbine can recreate the in game lag in the test lab and if they can't find out why not.

There was NEVER dps lag in Europe ...... We Europeans have never saw a dps lag ever before than in USA . Ask anyone but him and he will tell you the same thing (meaning the person that you quoted ) .

[Aesop]

I have a current argument for you. Handwrap wind stance monks swing faster on live than tempest rangers.


Ya know... since Tempest has no dex requirements beyond 13 of it's requisite feats. I wouldn't mind if they did add STWF as a fighter-only high level feat. Why should clumsy oaf rangers (comparing 13 dex vs 17 or 19 req of the STWF feat) get all the off-hand attacks?

And though I agree with some of the "but then clerics/mages/rogues/bards/FVS" would be gimped w/o that feat - with the revised changes they're at 80% w. GTWF. Why is it bad to allow a fighter that stat-sacrifices to get the high dex to also have all the off-hand ratio? Mostly I just want to give fighter more choices for their often wasted total number of feats at end game.

Ftr 20 would be able to attain Kensai 3 + capstone (doublestrike) + 100% off-hand + Weap Spec.

Ranger 18+ would still have Tempest 3 (doublestrike/AC/OffHand 100%) + FEnemy + MultiEnemyManyShot.

Mostly I just want to rehash STWF if it was proposed as fighter-only. Would that cause an instant respec of all TWF Fighters to get the 19 base dex at the cost of (probably con)...

This is coming from the park of someone that deleted their pure fighter back when the cap was 14 ... as it was just boring... and I needed the slot.

While the Handwraps windstance thing is true now. We are talking future so things can change. Honestly I'd like to slow Handwraps down a bit anyway and improve the stances all around. Maybe through in something like Fire Stance having a Rend ability built in that on any crit does a progressive amount of damage, windstance offers Double Strikes as its benefit Earth may offer static bonus to unarmed strikes and maybe a stunning effect water could improve THF glancing blows and have a knockdown proc...

handwraps being as fast as they are negate the benefits of other weapon possibilities

I'm tired can't elaborate

Aesop

[Deamus]

Your comments about code efficiency are worthwhile ; however, the DPS lag issues also occur in Europe, when there may be neither 500,000 nor 100,000 online --- but 50 or 100.

I'm not saying that so many people online won't cause some sort of lag, but the issue being addressed by these changes is NOT a population lag ; but a specific lag appearing in certain scenarios irrespective of how many people may be online at the time.

I know its off topic but there is NO DPS LAG in Europe or ever was . Don't believe what that guy says ...... ask any other European but him .....
(I posted twice cause i cannot stand people misinforming)

PS. As why there wasn't ever any dps lag in Europe even when we had big population ..the conclusion is yours ........