Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

I already answered that... Specific problems.

For instance... the problem in part 2 isn't the fact that the boss is surrounded. It isn't whether 8 people are attacking or only 7. It's the shadowfiends, pure and simple.

Look at the specifics.

There are no Shadowfiends in Shroud 4. There is however an immobile boss.

Likewise, the boss in Shroud 5 is immobile if properly surrounded.

Look at the specifics.

I've never heard of DPS lag in part 1... but guess what? Portals do not move. And others have complained about it.

[Belowme]

and if you added an unexplained through game mechanics swing miss to two handed fighters (cause lets be honest here this is completely unexplained through DnD Rule set)

Perhaps not fully unexplained. The way I see this OH "proc" garbage working is that since my monk has a low int score, if i don't "proc" an offhand attack it means that I actually "forgot" that i have a second arm. Apparently my meditations about the harmony between a flower and a butterfly has caused me to forget that certain parts of my body exist and are able to be used to dispatch my enemies. This is especially apparent when attacking from behind, where although I might get a flanking bonus, a sudden existential thought will distract me, and i will simply forget to make that swing. You've all seen Bruce Lee do it all the time. He'll just stop in the middle of a sequence and just use his main hand over and over and over again until he rolls an 81. It was in 'Enter the Dragon who is Easily Distracted by Butterfly'.

"The opportunity did not present itself, so you didn't take a swing"
The opportunity wasn't there, so I didn't bother to even try... in the middle of a screaming, arenaline pumping bloodbath. An opportunity! Attack.. *whoosh* ... MISSED.. so wait, maybe the opportunity wasn't there after all? It had to be or I wouldn't have remembered to take a swing.. but i missed so it really wasn't an opportunity after all...

Bottom line, offhand attacks are basically getting an attack roll to see if you get an attack roll? We're condensing one calculation (OH collision) and tacking on a lighter version (proc roll)? Head.. spinning...

[jkm]

here is the problem list for rogues:

1) nerf to off-hand radiance - less chance for it to go off - which means you end up having to regear for main hand radiance

2) nerf to an already nerfed assassin 3 vorpal strike - less attacks = less use. this one already got nerfed to oblivion with epic, but this is another strike against it

3) nerf to sneak attack - since sneak attack is a constant source of damage anything that lowers the amount of times it connects means less dps

4) nerf to crippling strike - less attacks = less str damage (also nuked from orbit by epic and mob stat regen)

5) not nerfing quarterstaves? so much for different playstyles

unknowns - still not sure what they are going to do with rogue haste boost

some options presented

Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 1 -> +1 to hit on SAs, 1% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 2 -> +2 to hit on SAs, 3% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 3 -> +3 to hit on SAs, 6% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 4 -> +4 to hit on SAs, 10% offhand hits on sneak attacks

and then on the rogue past life feat
+1 sneak attack damage, 1% doublestrike on sneak attacks

this is kind of straightforward and probably couldn't be done for U5

what i'd really like is more one off stuff that makes rogues balance their class -> trade crit mods on sneaks for hate, etc.

[Therilith]

in return for our higher miss chance we get an additional 5% on top of rangers (10%) chance at a double strike ... which in the event of a lighting strike could be very nice .
[...]
and 5% chance difference in double strike which barely it at all makes up for the 20% miss chance if it actually goes off at the same time as a major dps proc.

I though procs would still be rolled for normally on a double strike. Eladrin only mentioned "special attacks".

[SquelchHU]

High AC does still have some merit, no matter how many times you state the contrary.

Not past level 16, thanks to design.

YMMV

Don't just assume that your own experiences represent everything there is to know about it.

Cop out. A level 8 DDO character has +5 full plate (possibly mithril) and a +5 heavy shield if he wants to use a shield. A level 8 D&D character can only just afford one of those items, and it requires nearly every copper he has. This in turn means a better AC. Fact.

DDO also features more and different bonus types, like items with Dodge and Insight bonuses to AC. This also boosts AC. Fact.

Because of this increased gear availability, DDO AC remains on the Random Number Generator (RNG) for much longer. Fact.

I promise to think about your opinion next time my toon is the only one left standing, and I solo S&B a boss to death while all of the DPSers in the party are lying dead at our feet...

Enjoying the level 12 quests? What, you say it's higher level? Well have fun grinding on the mob for the next three hours... oh, it killed you anyways. Nevermind.

I don't think that you have ever played a *worthwhile* High AC toon in this game.

What does the scouter say about his reading comprehension level?

It's over... Wait, he doesn't have any. ******.

[Coldin]

Eladrin, would you please comment about the possibility of rogue's receiving a double-strike ability, perhaps in the form of the Opportunist Special Ability?

[bobbryan2]

There are no Shadowfiends in Shroud 4. There is however an immobile boss.

Likewise, the boss in Shroud 5 is immobile if properly surrounded.

Look at the specifics.

I've never heard of DPS lag in part 1... but guess what? Portals do not move. And others have complained about it.

In shroud 4.. you have blades that have some crazy AI/damage calculations. The lag doesn't get extremely bad unless the blades are plowing through peole on the outside, or once they reach melees.

In Shroud 5, the devs confirmed it was particle effects... which they fixed and the lag has gotten much better in 5 than in 4.

I'm not saying DPS lag doesn't exist. I'm just saying that instance-specific lag is a bigger problem.

[Therilith]

5) not nerfing quarterstaves? so much for different playstyles

It's been a while since I last played a rogue. Are acrobats and assassins really that close, power-wise?

[Angelus_dead]

This does not include the chance of killing on the first blow and thereby completely negating the offhand attack which previously would apply against a different opponent.

We have no information to say that won't still happen. It would be simple and obvious for the physics check to be redone on an offhand attack in the event that the mainhand attack killed the opponent.

[Drfirewater79]

My response to that (in case you missed it):



TWFing kensei should arguably have the same DPS output as tempest rangers, but that doesn't necessarily mean the exact same number of attacks.
Kensei specialize in dealing a lot of damage with a certain weapon, while tempest specialize in dual wielding.

a fighter who takes all the twf feats specializes in two weapon fighting ...

offering a way out by allowing kensai to gain the 100%-100% ratio was just my advice as a way to implement it ... much like tempest II

kensai allows you to increase you to hit ratio ... so it makes sense that you would be able to increase that ratio when dual wielding as well.

kensai are not about doing more damage .. . that is just a after the fact bonus do to more str and higher crit range ...

kensai hit more frequently with there favored weapon as well ...

so it makes total sense that with kensai enhancements that the % of loss should go down as well ...

[Baahb3]

Why TWF requires more sacrifice then THF.

It is a choice not a sacrifice.

* Double the weapons. This is a big one actually. It's way harder to get 2 holy silver khopeshs of greater evil outsider bane then 1 GS of the same. It also takes twice the raid grinding to make GS for TWF and twice the epic grinding (if there was actually one handed epic weapons worth grinding for). This means that you spend signifigantly more time gearing a twf then a thf. So game time to optimium case is much longer.

Your so called 'big one' was known before you built the character, and to be honest is a pretty weak reason you are giving. If you were not willing to grind the extra equipment you would not have built a TWFer in the first place.

Number crunchers like you frustrate me, you scream about '5% more/less DPS' or 'I have to spend 4 feats to to only do 10% more DPS then you do when you only have to take 1 feat' when it ultimately boils down to your choices.

I understand that the requirements to be a TWF are more but in the end you are making the choice to build a character that way.

Are you telling me if TWFing is only 5-10% higher DPS then THFing after this is done you wouldn't have made your TWFer? If you are as big a number cruncher as you seem you know you would do it anyway.

TWFing will still be top dog DPS wise they just won't be so far ahead of the pack.

[Angelus_dead]

It's been a while since I last played a rogue. Are acrobats and assassins really that close, power-wise?

Assassins are far ahead at level 18 and 19, but at level 10-17 and epic are about the same (or even slightly worse if movement speed reduces melee uptime). Of course, that's referring to sensible Acrobat players, who use TWF because staves are silly.

The Acrobat players who either prefer the staff animation or are unwilling to acquire offhand weapons have demonstrated less concern for the DPS-balance questions that motivate this thread.

[Calebro]

some options presented

Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 1 -> +1 to hit on SAs, 1% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 2 -> +2 to hit on SAs, 3% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 3 -> +3 to hit on SAs, 6% offhand hits on sneak attacks
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 4 -> +4 to hit on SAs, 10% offhand hits on sneak attacks

and then on the rogue past life feat
+1 sneak attack damage, 1% doublestrike on sneak attacks

I like this idea. A lot.
The question then becomes: Is it an either/or with this and Opportunist (which I also like)? Or both?

[Natashaelle]

Right, last post in this petty argument about nothing of consequence to this thread, and apologies to one and all, especially to the devs who are looking for feedback, not squabbling...

Not past level 16, thanks to design.

I'm sorry, but that's just untrue.

Cop out. A level 8 DDO character has +5 full plate (possibly mithril) and a +5 heavy shield if he wants to use a shield. A level 8 D&D character can only just afford one of those items, and it requires nearly every copper he has. This in turn means a better AC. Fact.

What, you mean you actually *used* those ridiculous WBL rules ? Your problem, not mine...

DDO also features more and different bonus types, like items with Dodge and Insight bonuses to AC. This also boosts AC. Fact.

Oh look, another irrelevant comment. Thank you for granting it to me.

Enjoying the level 12 quests? What, you say it's higher level? Well have fun grinding on the mob for the next three hours... oh, it killed you anyways. Nevermind.

...

right.

...

I apologise and Beg Forgiveness and Penance for daring to speak out against the Holy Dogma of your Hallowed Personal Opinions.

What does the scouter say about his reading comprehension level?

It's over... Wait, he doesn't have any. ******.

You know, I think this may very well be the final time that I will even *attempt* to respond to any of your posts.

Beam me up, Scotty.

[Cashiry]

It is a choice not a sacrifice.



Your so called 'big one' was known before you built the character, and to be honest is a pretty weak reason you are giving. If you were not willing to grind the extra equipment you would not have built a TWFer in the first place.

Number crunchers like you frustrate me, you scream about '5% more/less DPS' or 'I have to spend 4 feats to to only do 10% more DPS then you do when you only have to take 1 feat' when it ultimately boils down to your choices.

I understand that the requirements to be a TWF are more but in the end you are making the choice to build a character that way.

Are you telling me if TWFing is only 5-10% higher DPS then THFing after this is done you wouldn't have made your TWFer? If you are as big a number cruncher as you seem you know you would do it anyway.

TWFing will still be top dog DPS wise they just won't be so far ahead of the pack.

ya well if this goes thru, i will be swithcing to THF, for the DPS, there is no reason not too.. TWF take those feets and pump up dex to do more attacks....

its unfortunate they just dont make the phsics calcs on the main hand and leave the rest of the combat system alone... They actually throwing a nerf in to TWF when its not even needed.

[Tomw]

Post is intended as feedback to Eladrin and Dev team, I have not read all the posts following me. Forgive me if I offend or repeat, I am stating my opnion.

Eliminating the double check of physics is certainly gong to reduce server/client communication and reduce lag (perhaps more drastically than any of us anticipate). I think the offhand proc needs to be handled delicately, and am not entirely sure that doing the proc calculation, along with looking up enhancements and feats to determine the exact logic for the proc calculation would really save that much over the current system. Sure a packet from server to client and back for the physics check is extremely latent, and doing server side calculations is surely faster, but perhaps the simple answer is being over looked.

Reduce the number of attacks per second. Across the board. Period. Does not have to be a huge reduction, we are talking about putting this into testing, not rolling it out live. Start with say a 1% reduction in combat speed (For players, for monsters, for everything) and scale it up until you see a performance improvement. I would be much more interested in seeing this in addition to the removal of physics checks for TWF or THF.

[Gratch]

Just thinking. Spring Attack will be even lamer then it used to be with the U5 combat changes. I didn't think that was possible... but it is. Why is Spring Attack now beyond major suck crudtastic of the feat set?

Recent Reasons:
1) Physics hit detection vs. running away from you mobs has gotten so bad that you basically have to be on top or attacking where the mob will soon be for your attack-while-moving to even hit. (This is my experience with ~100ms lag... those close to the east coast may have better results. Though my lag (distance) has stayed the same this hit detection has gotten progressively worse since original launch.

2) The main purpose of spring attack is removing the -4 AB while moving. -4 seems to matter a lot less then it used to at high levels. Maybe slightly on epic or for low BAB classes (which don't have extra feats anyways).

New Reasons
1) Since there will only be one hit detection in the future for main/off-hand swings - there's no chance that even if your off-hand swing had caught up with the mobile monster - threre's no longer a hit-detect chance for them. Though most (all?) mobile TWF swings are a combined main/off hand double attack... so maybe this doesn't matter. Except when both you and the mob are moving just a short distance.

2) Mobility/Spring Attack is required for Tempest 1. Which is now the most feat-laden PRE for a now decreased bonus.

Just wondering if there's any advantage mobility or spring attack could give in the light of the new combat changes to prop them up as viable feat selections? Both feats in P&P are more concerned with managing attacks of opportunity. Could mobility's dodge bonus be applied for more then just tumbling? Could Spring Attack help with double strike %?

Just wondering...

[Angelus_dead]

I'm sorry, but that's just untrue.

No. The rapid obsolence of AC in D&D is well-documented and also very obvious. Higher monster CR = more HD = more BAB = higher attack roll. But there is no equivalent force working to raise AC dependent on your HD. Items, spells, and feats can all raise AC some, but attack bonus benefits from those effects as well. Attack bonus simply rises faster as you advance.

Several games based on the D&D mechanics give melee classes a substantial AC bonus dependent on level, but not D&D itself.

What, you mean you actually *used* those ridiculous WBL rules ? Your problem, not mine...

If you're ignoring critically-important D&D rules then you're not in a position to make claims as to what happens in a game played by the D&D rules. If you claim that some critically-important D&D rules are "ridiculous" then you have already ceded the position that the D&D rules are badly imbalanced.

[Calebro]

2) Mobility/Spring Attack is required for Tempest 1. Which is now the most feat-laden PRE for a now decreased bonus.

I keep seeing this, and it's an oversimplification.

Yes, Tempest requires 3 feats. But it gives you two feats for free that you were going to take anyway, so the cost is realistically 1 feat. That one feat is a tradeoff for an increase in off-hand proc, and a shield bonus to AC.
That sounds about right for the cost of a feat.
It also gives you the other Ranger6 goodies such as Manyshot, Favored Enemies, etc.

The Ranger6 splash is still a good choice. It's not nerfing the Ranger6 splash into uselessness as some people would have you believe.

[Therilith]

Reduce the number of attacks per second. Across the board. Period. Does not have to be a huge reduction, we are talking about putting this into testing, not rolling it out live. Start with say a 1% reduction in combat speed (For players, for monsters, for everything) and scale it up until you see a performance improvement. I would be much more interested in seeing this in addition to the removal of physics checks for TWF or THF.

That would nerf TWF and THF equally. They want to nerf TWF.