Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Therilith]

fighters when specialized should (based on the number of feats and abilities) be a SPECIALIST in there melee field ...

Why can you select "Kensei [two handed weapon] Mastery" if it's a TWF PrE?

Don't nerf twf and call it a change to make less dps lag.

Why are you posting in this thread if you haven't read the OP?

[The_Phenx]

Eladrin's proposed change, now without STWF, nerfs rangers more than fighters.

The way I read it is that STWF was being considered for general release as a trainable feat to all classes again, (like it was 4 years ago). And that Eladrin has said that that will NOT be happening now.

Not that he was taking STWF away from rangers.

Hence my comment.

I dont care if fighters get STWF I just think its silly that a fully trained and specalized (kensai III) would be less skilled at dual weilding his weapon of choice.

Before it made more sense... because the ranger was just a little faster, could sneak in an extra hit or two, not better, and certainly not better with every weapon, which if they are 100% 100% then they are more skilled with every available weapon than a guy who spends his whole life just training with one.

[Borror0]

Why can you select "Kensei [two handed weapon] Mastery" if it's a TWF PrE?

He never claimed it was a TWF specialty. It's a specialty that focus on mastering a weapon.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

I am a little concerned over this thread ... I apologize if this has already been discussed but how will this affect builds that have relied on stunning (weighted) weapons/feats?

I read it as ... less attacks = less chances to land ... = nerf

Will double strike have individual roles to see if the mob is stunned?

I would be pleased if anyone could comment.

[grodon9999]

Still catching up through the thread, but a few comments:

1) I've been convinced that STWF is not a benefit to the game. Instead of opening up new options, its presence instead would close many.
2) The Barbarian Capstone's alacrity bonus is a bug.

Will Mob HP be lowered to make up for the loss of DPS?

Bottom line, what will this do to my Tempest III's damage output? How will it effect vorpalling and stat-damaging? What are the latest number?

[Cashiry]

Eladrin, in your first posting of numbers you didn't have double strike.

Now that you do I have a question pertaining to monks. (Please forgive me if it's been asked, I don't have the time to read all 1400 posts.)

In the first sentence I quoted it says that monks wind stance will get 5%/10%/15%/20% to off hand proc rate.

Now you have changed it to double strike %. But wind 4 says it would give a 10% chance for double strike proc. Does that mean that each level of wind stance will give a 2.5% chance, or is wind 4 the ONLY level of that stance that will give double strike proc %?

Also, has there been any thought to Ki generation? With monks taking a big hit to the amount of times they will hit with their off hand they will not be generating as much ki, perhaps on double strikes they should get a percentage of extra ki than a normal hit? Ideas on this?

Good questions Towrn.....

[Therilith]

He never claimed it was a TWF specialty. It's a specialty that focus on mastering a weapon.

I know. What I meant was that just because fighters can specialize in a particular weapon type, and that weapon can be dual wielded doesn't mean that they specialize in dual wielding that weapon.

[Borror0]

The way I read it is that STWF was being considered for general release as a trainable feat to all classes again, (like it was 4 years ago). And that Eladrin has said that that will NOT be happening now.

Not that he was taking STWF away from rangers.

Exactly, so here is what happens:

1. Both rangers and fighters lose -20% on their offhand, which result in a ~10% DPS loss.
2. Fighter Weapon Alacrity gets changed to a 10% double strike bonus, which is a ~5% DPS loss.
3. Tempest I gets changed into a +10% bonus to their offhand, which is a ~5% DPS loss.
4. Tempest II is given a +10% bonus to their offhand, which is a ~5% DPS gain.
5. Tempest III gets its extra attack removed and wins a +5% double strike bonus, which is a ~7.5% loss.

Total loss:
Fighters: approximatively -15% DPS
Rangers: approximatively -17.5% DPS

Note: I'm aware I'm oversimplifying, but it gets the point across which is all that matters.
EDIT: Applied double strike properly.

Before it made more sense... because the ranger was just a little faster, could sneak in an extra hit or two, not better, and certainly not better with every weapon, which if they are 100% 100% then they are more skilled with every available weapon than a guy who spends his whole life just training with one.

Currently, rangers have more offhand attacks per round than fighters and so will they after the change. Nothing will change, in that aspect.

[Cyr]

Still catching up through the thread, but a few comments:

1) I've been convinced that STWF is not a benefit to the game. Instead of opening up new options, its presence instead would close many.
2) The Barbarian Capstone's alacrity bonus is a bug.

Well this at least means that anyone who bothers going TWF under then new numbers would not be gimping their toon by going 20 ranger. On the flip side, it also means that fighters and barbs have even less reason to go twf. The numbers are just as bad for multi-class builds now, just comparitively to other twf builds they are not so bad with STWF removed from consideration.

There is still a huge problem with the design idea that THF should be doing ~ the same damge as TWF. If this idea holds sway anyone who understands builds in DDO will have a huge number of their builds trashed and new melee builds will almost always be THF builds.

Why TWF requires more sacrifice then THF.

* Dex requirements. These are basic build points that in many builds would not go towards dex otherwise.

* To hit penalties. TWF has signifigant to hit penalties. These dominate at low to mid levels. They also matter at higher levels. To get around them you have to either use OTWF or be a tempest ranger. So that is either a feat or 3 feats depending on the route.

* Large dps drop off with less feats. TWF dps drops off much faster then THF does if less then the full feat lines are purchased. This matters for builds that are not 100% melee builds and have other useful feat options.

* Double the weapons. This is a big one actually. It's way harder to get 2 holy silver khopeshs of greater evil outsider bane then 1 GS of the same. It also takes twice the raid grinding to make GS for TWF and twice the epic grinding (if there was actually one handed epic weapons worth grinding for). This means that you spend signifigantly more time gearing a twf then a thf. So game time to optimium case is much longer.

* Finally, to actually be an optimium TWF (and we are assuming optimium cases are the ones being considered here and not some strange middling dps case which has no real bearing on end game) you need one extra feat...khopesh.

So added up TWF has 2-5 (worst case is tempest 1/2 splash, oversize, khopesh) more feats needed, more ability points put into dex, longer time to gear up the toon, a lower to hit (if you want another feat to use), and less flexibility when it comes to dropping feats for partial melee builds (bards for example).

[grodon9999]

Total loss:
Fighters: approximatively -10% DPS
Rangers: approximatively -15% DPS

.

That'll **** me off but won't make me rage-quit. If mob HP were reduced it might not even **** me off that badly.

You're smarter than I am with numbers, how will this effect vorpal-swings?

[Cyr]

That'll **** me off but won't make me rage-quit. If mob HP were reduced it might not even **** me off that badly.

You're smarter than I am with numbers, how will this effect vorpal-swings?

It is a nerf to vorpals and such also.

If the change was ONLY a physics check reduction with proc percentages made to create equal dps as before it would still be a minor nerf to vorpals. This is because if you vorpal one target and another is within range for your second attack it swings against that target now. This is a direct consequence of having this delayed physics check for off hand hooks and a very good reason for it. In other words, it spreads out your damage into smaller spikes making your dps more effective (or insta-kills).

However, the numbers currently listed are reductions in the number of attacks per round for all twfs also. So vorpal effectiveness is cut in this regard also.

[Lithic]

So while you are at it, how about admitting that your "momentary insanity" will be corrected and the eSOS brought into line with epic one handers? With this nerf to 2wf, loads of people are going to start respecing into a eSOS style of fighting. You should give those people a heads up so they don't waste their time.

[grodon9999]

However, the numbers currently listed are reductions in the number of attacks per round for all twfs also. So vorpal effectiveness is cut in this regard also.

I know it'll be cut, what I'm concerned about is by how much. 10% fewer swings? 20?

[Arctigis]

Well this at least means that anyone who bothers going TWF under then new numbers would not be gimping their toon by going 20 ranger. On the flip side, it also means that fighters and barbs have even less reason to go twf. The numbers are just as bad for multi-class builds now, just comparitively to other twf builds they are not so bad with STWF removed from consideration.

There is still a huge problem with the design idea that THF should be doing ~ the same damge as TWF. If this idea holds sway anyone who understands builds in DDO will have a huge number of their builds trashed and new melee builds will almost always be THF builds.

Why TWF requires more sacrifice then THF.

* Dex requirements. These are basic build points that in many builds would not go towards dex otherwise.

* To hit penalties. TWF has signifigant to hit penalties. These dominate at low to mid levels. They also matter at higher levels. To get around them you have to either use OTWF or be a tempest ranger. So that is either a feat or 3 feats depending on the route.

* Large dps drop off with less feats. TWF dps drops off much faster then THF does if less then the full feat lines are purchased. This matters for builds that are not 100% melee builds and have other useful feat options.

* Double the weapons. This is a big one actually. It's way harder to get 2 holy silver khopeshs of greater evil outsider bane then 1 GS of the same. It also takes twice the raid grinding to make GS for TWF and twice the epic grinding (if there was actually one handed epic weapons worth grinding for). This means that you spend signifigantly more time gearing a twf then a thf. So game time to optimium case is much longer.

* Finally, to actually be an optimium TWF (and we are assuming optimium cases are the ones being considered here and not some strange middling dps case which has no real bearing on end game) you need one extra feat...khopesh.

So added up TWF has 2-5 (worst case is tempest 1/2 splash, oversize, khopesh) more feats needed, more ability points put into dex, longer time to gear up the toon, a lower to hit (if you want another feat to use), and less flexibility when it comes to dropping feats for partial melee builds (bards for example).

I also was wondering what the need was to equalise TWF and THF given the disparity of their comparitive
requirements. Your excellent post covers everything I think

[Cyr]

So while you are at it, how about admitting that your "momentary insanity" will be corrected and the eSOS brought into line with epic one handers? With this nerf to 2wf, loads of people are going to start respecing into a eSOS style of fighting. You should give those people a heads up so they don't waste their time.

Egats no!

If ESoS was nerfed into epic one hander power then why would anyone want it? Epic one handers are horrible.

[Borror0]

You're smarter than I am with numbers, how will this effect vorpal-swings?

Ranger:

• Currently: 9*1.1*1.15=11.4 attacks per unit of time
• After change: 8*1.05*1.15= 9.7 attacks per unit of time
• Loss: 14.9%

Fighter:

• Currently: 8*1.1*1.15=10.1 attacks per unit of time
• After change: (4*1.10+4*0.90)*1.15= 9.2 attacks per unit of time
• Loss: 8.9%

EDIT: As Cyr later points out, these calculations are wrong. I applied double strike to both hands, when it's only the main hand. I remade the calculations here, with the proper values.

[SquelchHU]

I never meant to suggest that S&B could or should ever be able to compete with the DPS of either 2HF or 2WF.

The point of S&B is to get more AC than other fighters -- obviously, not every player is going to be convinced that this is a worthwhile goal.

But your suggestion that 2HF S&B will be of "zero" consequence to S&B is quite clearly an exaggeration.

AC is not a worthwhile goal. The game design makes this so. Players will always do what the mechanics encourage them to. Always.

Enemies have high to hits: This makes the difference between low and high AC hit on a 2 or hit on a 2... no difference. But the low AC guy has more HP, DPS etc and is therefore superior in every way.

Many attacks bypass AC entirely: Horoth is the main offender here. No amount of AC will stop Disintegrate, or his other spells. At which point only HP matters.

Certain mechanics encourage disabling the mobs entirely: No one is going to AC tank epic mobs. Even if you actually can. Why? You need to stun and auto crit em to kill them some time today. That means lots of Fighters and Barbarians using Stunning Blow. It also means the mobs aren't fighting back at all.

Most characters with worthwhile ACs in the areas it actually works in have gimp DPS: You may be taking less damage over time, but it will also take you longer to kill the mob and therefore the mob will get more swings at you. This is particularly true with ROLL A BARB Blows, which can actually result in the Barbarian taking LESS damage than a defensive specialist to do the same thing. While also killing the mobs some time today. Check the Sins Elite thread. No mitigation Barbarian, and he's taking less damage over the course of the quest than someone's S&B tank.

Double strike is actually better for monks and S&B because there is a chance of a second proc of a special attack e.g. trip, stunning blow (for S&B) and stunning fist, quivering palm, touch of death (for monks). This means the mob has to save twice.

I mentioned attacks that trigger on a specific proc already. Just because I only used Smite Evil as an example and did not give the full list does not mean I am not aware of that.

And since it's only 10% they end up being very minor. For example Touch of Death is +33.3 DPS if you spam it as often as you can... 10% double strike adds 3.3 to that number. Sounds good until you remember you're down by more than the total 36.6 Touch of Death is getting you by the loss of offhand attacks, which also impact your ki generation, which in turn further reduces your damage output...

I wouldn't agree that 10 or 15% less dps is killing builds. Especially when it is putting these overpowered builds on the same footing as THF.

Overpowered says who?

And let's say you're right. In that case, TWF is completely and utterly worthless, because you do not pay 30 dollars for a 10 dollar item. You pay 10, and save your 20.

I believe the increased hate from stances are still broken.

Garth

If it doesn't even work then S&B is more screwed. But really, it's already below the minimum threshhold, and has been for a very long time. Being 'less screwed' only matters if it pushes it up to the minimum bounds of viability.

I think he means that it is rare in PnP for melee players to perform full-round actions so it's "closer to PnP" to have a mechanism that discourages standing still and attacking.

Um, what?

About the only thing 'closer to PnP' about it is an attack penalty instead of a bonus. Other than that, you really did want to stand still and auto attack in PnP, because you'd lose up to 80% DPS if you didn't. And then everyone knows that, so they move more than 5 feet away from you and do something worthwhile as a Standard action, screwing you utterly. And then you know that anyone and everyone except other melee can casually negate your DPS, so you get an ability that lets you move more than 5 feet and still full attack. Like Pounce.

And none of that has anything to do with twitching.

As for the topic itself, I said earlier that one of the following was true:

1: STWF is available. Tempest is dead, because STWF is 4 times cheaper and offers almost as much benefit by itself.
2: STWF is not available. At which point it is Rangers as a whole who are dead, since Rangers do two things and one of those things has been invalid since beta.

Well, now I have my answer. Thanks a whole lot.

[talyor]

If the physics check is now only checks main hand, will this change my rouge assassins ability to sneak up behind two mobs and assassinate both with one strike?

[Ricter]

The adjusted table seems better, but still concerns me... STWF is available to high BAB classes, which makes it more available to Fighter/Ranger.

Other TWF are pretty much going to take a DPS hit, which again, means that DPS that were already struggling to find a group spot (Bard, Monk, Rogue) are taking another hit.

I saw a post of a Rogue who had crafted the epic Sword of Shadows for himself, and posted ss of its use. At first I laughed, thinking how ridiculous that was. Now I realize he's just ahead of the game.

[Drfirewater79]

I am interested in how this change will effect s&b and two handed fighters if it was implemented into there attack patterns

if sword and board had an offhand attack added to attack with sheild at same rate as two weapon fighters assuming they took a feat chain to increase like Shield fighting I II and III ...it could increase there dps and usefulness especially with a carry over from main hand weapon to shield for effects.

and if you added an unexplained through game mechanics swing miss to two handed fighters (cause lets be honest here this is completely unexplained through DnD Rule set)

so maybe they should change thf to require the feats ...

thf you get 75% chance to hit after confirming hit from weapon
ITHF you get 80% chance
GTHF you get 90%
frenzi you get 100%
kensai you get 95%

yeah screw it why not just make casters do it too

yeah automatic spell fail even if you have no spell failure chance.

you know just to keep it balanced and fair.