Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[r3dl4nce]

You know the strangest thing, I've regularly seen barbs loose aggro to 2wfers with threat reduction. I've even seen a barb loose aggro to a wis built monk lacking ToD rings!

Well, tell to that barbs to reroll or start to equip and learn to play...
A well played well equipped barb can loose aggro only in a single circumstance. When he die.

[Auran82]

I saw a good point in this thread. Eladrin, have you attempted to discern the source of the memory leaks that were found when switching characters? My theory on this matter was proven, but for some reason I can't seem to find the thread using the forums search.

No point speaking to him specifically, its going to take him 2 days to read the rest of the thread.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

THF should be nerfed and so should Epic Sword of Shadow.

As it is, the easiest thing to do is make a maxed out strength+constitution barb or fighter and then take the THF chain of feats.

Those in combination with glancing attacks and twitching attacks (not to mention the Epic Sword of Shadows) make THF by far the most extreme form of DPS in the game all while allowing the player to maintain maximum Hit Points (as opposed to the stat spread a TWF has to do). And AC is not even a consideration in epic so that the dex doesn't help unlike the ability to place all points in constitution and strength that a THF currently has.

NERF TWITCHING THF. NERF GLANCING BLOWS. AND NERF EPIC SOS.

Just no.

[Aspenor]

No point speaking to him specifically, its going to take him 2 days to read the rest of the thread.

You underestimate my powers of developer summoning.

[Auran82]

Well, tell to that barbs to reroll or start to equip and learn to play...
A well played well equipped barb can loose aggro only in a single circumstance. When he die.

Or maybe vs a well equipped and played str based rogue who forgets to turn on his aggro reducing abilities.

[r3dl4nce]

Or maybe vs a well equipped and played str based rogue who forgets to turn on his aggro reducing abilities.

Well, you are saying that is a mistake. Even if a barb doesn't activate Power Attack, doesn't go in rage and so on.... but these are mistakes, not common events.

[Natashaelle]

S&B is way behind. To catch up, they need a MASSIVE boost. Something that does not do this is invalid. They will be irrelevant before, and irrelevant after. The only thing it does is trick those that don't know better into thinking that they're fine now.

I never meant to suggest that S&B could or should ever be able to compete with the DPS of either 2HF or 2WF.

The point of S&B is to get more AC than other fighters -- obviously, not every player is going to be convinced that this is a worthwhile goal.

But your suggestion that 2HF S&B will be of "zero" consequence to S&B is quite clearly an exaggeration.

[Artos_Fabril]

STWF, in the context of DDO, stands for Superior Two Weapon Fighting. The only occurrence of Superior Two Weapon Fighting in any official 3.0 or 3.5 D&D material, that I am aware of, is in regards to ettins (a two-headed monster race) where its description is "An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons."
[...]
In fact, Superior Two Weapon Fighting is no where to be seen on Wizards of the Coast's official 3.5 D&D feat list.

Before you go on to claim that you meant Supreme Two Weapon Fighting, let me do a little bit of preemptive refutation: the feats is, like Superior Two Weapon Fighting, no where to be seen on Wizards' official 3.5 D&D list which suggests no supplement offers it as a general feat; it is, to the best of my knowledge, only available to master of the Wild's Tempest prestige class so there is no reason for it to be available as a general feat; and it's still not called Superior Two Weapon Fighting so, even if you were to refute the two previous points, the position that Superior Two Weapon Fighting is a made up feat still stands.

This was the closest thing I could find. It contains the same wording as the 3.5e Epic Feats List Hosted on the WotC site(.RTF)
It bears little in common with the cited STWF rules, even ignoring the fact that it requires 21st level to select.

As far as the proposed changes go, my initial reaction is not at all positive. However, I certainly hope it works out better than it looks. After my experience playing a monk in EQ, red flags start going up whenever sweeping changes are proposed based on how a small fraction of a percent of characters perform in a small fraction of a percent of content.

Most of all, I'm looking forward to Eladrin's reaction when he comes into work after the long weekend to find out he has to read at least a third of a 135 page thread.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Double strike is FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL to alacrity when using a single weapon, which both THF and S&B do.

Double strike is actually better for monks and S&B because there is a chance of a second proc of a special attack e.g. trip, stunning blow (for S&B) and stunning fist, quivering palm, touch of death (for monks). This means the mob has to save twice.

Killing builds. I see builds as content in DDO, since it is such a fun, complex and important part of this game - especially compared to what they call "builds" in other MMOs.

I wouldn't agree that 10 or 15% less dps is killing builds. Especially when it is putting these overpowered builds on the same footing as THF.

Defender is +200% hate.

I believe the increased hate from stances are still broken.

Garth

[cata]

I dont know how D&D engine works.But from what i understand *Lag* problem comes from *Multiple Dices count on weps (Holy/Acid/Fire/Ice...) . If the *Multiple Dices (Holy/Acid/Fire/Ice...) are counted separately then read next*

To clear some of the Lag one change could be done - instead of multiple checks on every Element on a Wep to be done only 1dice for each Wep (For TWF).

So let me explain a bit - If u have a Scimitar (with Holy2d6,PureGood1d6,Acid1d6) and u roll a dice ToHit (to pass AC of mob) lets say 10 (lets say hit) GameEngine/Client need to dice for Every dice, RandomGeneratedNumber(#RGN) depending on every Dice (if im not right stop reading and ignore this post) so GameEngine/Client needs to #RGN 1d6(Scimitar)+2d6(Holy)+1d6(PureGood)+1d6(Acid)=4# RGNs coz each its a diferent Efect.

Now to do it the New my way - Same Wep,Same ToHitDice 10 - instead of making all those #RGN make just 1#RGN on HitDice number (convert the hit dice 10 to 50%) so a 10ToHitDiceRolled to get 1d6=3(Scimitar)+2d6=6(holy)+1d6=3(PureGood)+1d6(Ac id) == so only 1dice /hit (1#RGN /hit + Reuse of % got from ToHitDice) ***I know its hard to get it coz would be like a Vorpal on 20HitDice everyting hiting full .

Or when u Reuse ToHitDice % lets say 20ToHitDice instead on using on 1d6=1-6 u could use 1d6=6-1 so u get a bit random end DMG. = Same Wep,ToHitDice 20=100% == 1d6=6(Scimitar)+2d6=2(Holy using 2d6=12-2)+1d6=1(PureGood using 1d6=61)+1d6=6(Acid).

I would expet like 5-10%max less lag or less but sounds alot Crazy and maeby better then Nerfing OffHand like that.
Just trying to help dont jump on me to hard ^^. ty and have funn in anyway it comes.
It could be a quick/fast Twick untill DDO team gets some more cash to Upgrade Hardware/Software. :P

[ironmaiden-br]

THF should be nerfed and so should Epic Sword of Shadow.

As it is, the easiest thing to do is make a maxed out strength+constitution barb or fighter and then take the THF chain of feats.

Those in combination with glancing attacks and twitching attacks (not to mention the Epic Sword of Shadows) make THF by far the most extreme form of DPS in the game all while allowing the player to maintain maximum Hit Points (as opposed to the stat spread a TWF has to do). And AC is not even a consideration in epic so that the dex doesn't help unlike the ability to place all points in constitution and strength that a THF currently has.

NERF TWITCHING THF. NERF GLANCING BLOWS. AND NERF EPIC SOS.

NO!

Adn also don't nerf twf

must be better ways to solve performance problems....... like better machines.

[Aspenor]

NERF TWITCHING THF.

Yes.

NERF GLANCING BLOWS.

No.

AND NERF EPIC SOS.

No.

Twitching THF should be fixed. The rest is just overkill. Fixing the twitch THF would be sufficient to obtain the desired goal. This is being said as a player that uses twitch THF on a character (probably my current most favorite, actually).

[Battlehawke]

Interesting "tie in" here.

I played in a shroud group last week that wasn't that much DPS/melee build. We had two rogues, 3 clerics, 1 FvS, 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 Barbs, 1 ranger and 1 fighter. We took him down in part 4 in one round. No pets, no dancing...and believe it or not....almost no buffing in the first 3 parts.

I played a few nights ago with some guy in another shroud run that took forever to get into the quest. We waited about 7-8 minutes for him to come after his invite. When he finally got in, he apologized for taking so long. He said that he was playing via his phone lines, because his Cable wasn't working. We had 1 cleric, 1 Fvs, 1 bard, 1 sorc, 1 rogue, 3 fighters, 2 barbs, and 2 rangers. There were pets everywhere and discos. The guy with the phone line seemed to be a step behind everyone. Almost several wipes in Part 2... twice we were down to one person who managed to rez most of the party. There was tons of lag. Then we wiped in part 4 with the boss at about 5%.

It seems odd, but could his playing on the phone line affect lag severely for everyone else? Could pets and disco balls affect it?

If so, is it possible to sort people out by connection speed? Those with better speeds/connections stay with each other, and those with slower .... stay with the slower..?

Seems a bit odd.... but would that work?

[Krag]

It seems odd, but could his playing on the phone line affect lag severely for everyone else? Could pets and disco balls affect it?

Yes to both questions.

[Aspenor]

Interesting "tie in" here.

I played in a shroud group last week that wasn't that much DPS/melee build. We had two rogues, 3 clerics, 1 FvS, 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 Barbs, 1 ranger and 1 fighter. We took him down in part 4 in one round. No pets, no dancing...and believe it or not....almost no buffing in the first 3 parts.

I played a few nights ago with some guy in another shroud run that took forever to get into the quest. We waited about 7-8 minutes for him to come after his invite. When he finally got in, he apologized for taking so long. He said that he was playing via his phone lines, because his Cable wasn't working. We had 1 cleric, 1 Fvs, 1 bard, 1 sorc, 1 rogue, 3 fighters, 2 barbs, and 2 rangers. There were pets everywhere and discos. The guy with the phone line seemed to be a step behind everyone. Almost several wipes in Part 2... twice we were down to one person who managed to rez most of the party. There was tons of lag. Then we wiped in part 4 with the boss at about 5%.

It seems odd, but could his playing on the phone line affect lag severely for everyone else? Could pets and disco balls affect it?

If so, is it possible to sort people out by connection speed? Those with better speeds/connections stay with each other, and those with slower .... stay with the slower..?

Seems a bit odd.... but would that work?

I have noticed this too. Sometimes when I'm getting bad lag, I ask the party which one of them using wireless or dial-up to play. Almost every time somebody is.

The program should just forget these people, and not try to keep them up to speed with everybody else.

Whether these selfish idiots should be playing at all with a connection like that is another matter altogether. I don't pay for a 20 MB connection just to have my gaming experience ruined by some idiot using a laptop in a coffee shop.

[Do'Urden]

Could pets and disco balls affect it?

This is a somewhat uneducated observation, but it seems to me that the type of lag associated with those 2 things would be unrelated. Disco balls seem to have impact only on client-related (graphics processing) lag whereas multiple pets introduce AI pathing, DPS, etc. in other words a heavier burden on the server calcs.

[grodon9999]

I have noticed this too. Sometimes when I'm getting bad lag, I ask the party which one of them using wireless or dial-up to play. Almost every time somebody is.

The program should just forget these people, and not try to keep them up to speed with everybody else.

Whether these selfish idiots should be playing at all with a connection like that is another matter altogether. I don't pay for a 20 MB connection just to have my gaming experience ruined by some idiot using a laptop in a coffee shop.

Agreed, if your connection sucks you shouldn't ruin it for people who have decent setups.

[Gercho]

I have noticed this too. Sometimes when I'm getting bad lag, I ask the party which one of them using wireless or dial-up to play. Almost every time somebody is.

The program should just forget these people, and not try to keep them up to speed with everybody else.

Whether these selfish idiots should be playing at all with a connection like that is another matter altogether. I don't pay for a 20 MB connection just to have my gaming experience ruined by some idiot using a laptop in a coffee shop.

Some dev posted (not sure if in this thread or another) that they had fixed this problem already, and a bad connection wont affect the others in the group in the future (area of effect spells were waiting for everyone life signal to take effect, so, the group lag was a case of the worst connection for the group, from now on, area of effect spells will be applied to everyone individually without waiting for the others)

[dunklezhan]

I have noticed this too. Sometimes when I'm getting bad lag, I ask the party which one of them using wireless or dial-up to play. Almost every time somebody is.

The program should just forget these people, and not try to keep them up to speed with everybody else.

Whether these selfish idiots should be playing at all with a connection like that is another matter altogether. I don't pay for a 20 MB connection just to have my gaming experience ruined by some idiot using a laptop in a coffee shop.

Steady on there - some of us cant get a high speed connection where we live. I'm playing wirelessly too because my router is at the far end of the house, where the phone line comes in. Its 'broadband' - 1.5Mbps. My wireless connection to the router is way faster than that. its not the wireless that affects my gameplay speeds, if anything its the ADSL line. I'm not 'some idiot', thank you very much. In fact, I checked with the cable company I was with at my last address before I committed to buying this house because my internet speed was pretty much a deal breaker, they told me cable was available.... and they were wrong. I am (*&^&^ off by that on a daily basis. However, even had I not checked this wouldn't make me an idiot - you work with what you've got, and I can do no better here.

Can't believe my first post in this thread has been for this reason. So, on topic: -

I don't personally see this change as a major deal (though I admit I'm a bit confused why they're making the lag-reducing physics check and bolting on other TWF changes which don't seem to be causing lag in the first place) and I don't see 'end game' being the only criteria for measuring the success or failure of such a change.

With TR in place now an awful lot of people are going to spend an awful lot of time at the lower levels now. And I personally - speaking as someone currently in love with my ranger and rogue - am not worried by this change. Yes I'll be less effective, but this does not worry me. I'll just have to learn to play better to compensate.

[zealous]

Twitching THF should be fixed. The rest is just overkill. Fixing the twitch THF would be sufficient to obtain the desired goal. This is being said as a player that uses twitch THF on a character (probably my current most favorite, actually).

Is it 2h twitch that should be fixed or is it unarmed/single weapon/2wf that should be fixed to be twitchable though?

Trying to maximize twitch and have a dynamic moving combat would be more fun than standing still and holding auto attack, would it not?

After all, it's closer to PnP!

And then...when they move mobs attacks to the end of the animation...again...and sync them to intervals that go hand in hand with the attack cycles of the players...twitch like a butterfly, sting like a pre-nerf WoP rapier