Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Halock]

It doesn't actually have to happen.

Somehow... I really doubt ToD part 2 is being lagged out by monks...

Probably because I'm told most parties won't accept more than 1 of them.

God i hope this gets noticed

Would also like ot mention just how much turning off the combat log helps, i'v been on runs since i did that where everyone else is screaming about lag and i see 0, as a monk i pick up on lag very easy, since it fux my ki strike rotation.

[zealous]

A. No glancing blows while moving.
B. 2H twitch will still have same or higher single target DPS than 2H no twitch with glancing blows, no twitch 2H with GTHF will have the advantage when hitting multiple mobs.

Proxy buff to builds not able to fit GTHF since you can now achieve competitive 2H damage output.

i.e. Even if you're mainly 2wf, caster, intimi, etc. you too can get yourself a eSoS or grind out a "cheap" minII GA and do as good as the 2H specced, limited by build ofc.

This might also open up possibilities for feat starved 2H specced builds such as...hmm...barbarians. If you're willing to sacrifice some AoE dps, you get 3 feats to spend on e.g. past lifes, stunning blow/toughness or an extre imp.crit or two.
---
This opens up the possibility for a lot of build variety, not to mention that it might make balancing easier since 2H being too powerful becomes less of an issue due to it being available to everyone.

It would be quite interesting indeed if similar things were done to 2wf, i.e. main functionality of using two weapons granted to all characters while the feats are remodelled to grant secondary benefits.

[Ollathir]

Just my instinctive thoughts, questions, regarding the lag TWF, THF speed boost adjustments .

Propossed change, remove physics detection for the offhand.

This basically leaves a TWF with having to do a (A) physics detect, main hand,(B) roll % proc offhand, (C)roll to-hit main hand,(D) roll or no roll to-hit offhand, depending on proc success. Then if you do proc, offhand follows up where mainhand went.

TWF penalties, regardless of weapon in the mainhand and offhand don’t seem to be lessened, even though the average (no tempest, wind, zeal, STWF) character with GTWF will not use his off-hand if he doesn’t proc and if he does, he's pretty much performing an attack as a THF or S&B without the B. Why would players want to build a character around this mechanic? Penalty Same= Advantage not same.



Double strike, does it work similar to a spell casters critical % chance enhancement for 1 times damage or is this an independent roll, Ie; (A) rolls to double strike, confirms, then applies main hand damage or (A) rolls to double strike, confirms, (B) rolls to hit.

I'm assuming the first, so without any Warchanter update, you only have a 5%-10% chance to proc. We end up trading a fixed variable, Ie; speed boost, for an random effect.

By taking out the fixed variable, speed boost, character creation for min/maxers becomes more of a guess. You cant possibly factor in DPS on something that may or may not happen. That would be less enjoyable for those that like that aspect of the game.
Speed and fast gameplay for some is just as important. Removing it and replacing it with something that has less of a wow factor might not work out. Sounds great getting the extra damage, but I know a caster can go through 2000 spell points with an 18% crit chance and never crit if you don’t get the roll.

Much like you mentioned your attacking lag from many angles, but with this and with THF no longer being able to move around and recieve glancing blows idea, I get the feeling, many are being forced to conform to a new play style to help improve lag and balance the game by lowering DPS. The play style I've adapted for my melee and casters are in keeping with the content I play. Speed and heavy DPS is a fixed part of that style to combat heavy HP mobs and bosses. If the content doesnt change, this could prove frustrating.

[zealous]

By taking out the fixed variable, speed boost, character creation for min/maxers becomes more of a guess. You cant possibly factor in DPS on something that may or may not happen. That would be less enjoyable for those that like that aspect of the game.

Min/maxing is already based on weighted averages. If something happens 10% of the time it happens 10% of the time, law of large numbers an all.

In fact, doublestrike is more intuitive and easy to estimate than speed boosts. Speed boosts add multiplicatively with overhead so you need to run formulas based on estimations, thus introducing uncertainty in any calcs. Double strike is intuitive and straight forward.

[Natashaelle]

Anyone who knows networking knows not enough bandwidth causes LAG or Packet Loss depending on the rate limiter setup their ISP uses.

Code may be efficient when 100,000 people are playing but it may not be as efficient when 500,000 people are playing. There is a limit to how efficient code can be made. Once at this limit hardware and bandwidth are your only choices.

Also this is not code efficiency this is recoding taking away functionality. Big difference.

It is most likely not a single problem and this imay be the cheapest way for them to fix it. Recode it once and no more cost.

Your comments about code efficiency are worthwhile ; however, the DPS lag issues also occur in Europe, when there may be neither 500,000 nor 100,000 online --- but 50 or 100.

I'm not saying that so many people online won't cause some sort of lag, but the issue being addressed by these changes is NOT a population lag ; but a specific lag appearing in certain scenarios irrespective of how many people may be online at the time.

[Natashaelle]

I don't believe the EU servers got the super slow attack. We got that with the release of DDO:EU (wow, thats confusing naming) and then it disappeared before "mod 9" was release in Europe...I think.

That is correct -- Europe was never subjected to that particular horror.

[sephiroth1084]

Good points, Ollathir.

So, the changes to TWF will result in:

• inconsistent DPS, which makes decisions on character build and comparison more difficult
• slower combat from a visual perspective
• slower combat in general as less DPS will mean longer fights
• potential for characters wielding two weapons to get the -2 penalty on attack rolls without actually making an off-hand attack
• reduced value for the TWF feat chain, making it a less attractive option
• lower ki generation for monks
• possible difficulty for some classes/characters to obtain full TWF bonuses (STWF)
• loss of the ability to perform certain types of actions that depend upon separate collision checks for the main and off-hand attacks (double Assassinate, for example), which are A) not gamebreaking in the least, and B) something many people enjoy

Am I leaving anything out?

[Angelus_dead]

Another factor I haven't seen mentioned:

This addition of random chances for one or two more attacks as part of your single attack will reduce the feeling of being in control of your character. Even if it doesn't make a difference to the combat outcomes, the player's input actions will have a less direct correspondence to what the character does, loosening the immersiveness. The game will become a bit less visceral.

To have a swing and a miss is one thing, because at least the character did the action (although it failed). But for the character to randomly not do part of the attack makes it seem like he was too lazy to make the attempt. I know the explanation given: "He couldn't find an opening right now". But what it feels like is you're less in control, which starts to dredge up some of the negative recollections of lag experience.

[Dazalarian]

Hi,

ok after reading 120+ pages of tedious rants about "how Turbine broke my build with this latest nerf". (before you start to slag me off for my joindate I can tell you I'm one of the EU refugees which made it over here. Join Date: Mar 2006).

First up, this thread should be split into 2 different ones, one with posts about the lag and what to do about it (about 10 posts in all) and one with concerns about TWF getting nerfed (spiced up with some eSoS rants). 4 out 4 of my melee-characters will be affected btw.

I'm more worried about the lag-situation than any possible nerf of TWF. The small benefit we would get lagwise from the proposed change is nowhere near enough to make this a longterm solution. With more PrE's coming which will add more "hooks" into the combat engine its just a matter of time before things are broken again.

What needs to be done is a serious overhaul of the whole combat-code, it needs to be re-written so it can scale to cope with loads 10 times higher than today (10x at least depending on how you implement this).

I would suggest Eladrin to have a long hard look at glancing blows, we never experienced DPS lag before that was introduced (as far as I can remember anyway). If this code is not absolutely spot-on it needs to be fixed cause it affects all attacks in game, hit, miss, BOTH by mobs and players alike. Do some testing on Lam with glancing blow enabled and then remove it and do the same tests, do some performance monitoring and check the results. I'm pretty sure this is the culprit in all of this.

There were some other nice suggestions about how to speed up arbitrary dice-rolling, have a look into this as well. I can only guess how you have implemented the combat-system but from the looks of it, it has grown beyond its limits.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Meetch1972]

God i hope this gets noticed

Would also like ot mention just how much turning off the combat log helps, i'v been on runs since i did that where everyone else is screaming about lag and i see 0, as a monk i pick up on lag very easy, since it fux my ki strike rotation.

If this is true (and I hope it is!) then I can foresee the chance of combat log events being wrapped in a separate TCP stream to the client, somewhat packetised (maybe 1 packet per round - "Your round begins. You roll x for blah, then y for foo, then z for bar") - so you will NOT see a blow by blow of the rolls as it happens - but I'd rather suffer combat log lag than actual lag. That sort of log could also be pushed over UDP which would allow such packets to be dropped if the connection was dodgy.

I've got a monk friend who suffers badly... we'll see how he goes with the combat log switched off.

[zealous]

Good points, Ollathir.

So, the changes to TWF will result in:

• inconsistent DPS, which makes decisions on character build and comparison more difficult No more inconsistent than it is now, with sufficient number of attacks it averages out
• slower combat from a visual perspective For some builds, based on the speed effect of the barb capstone going unnoticed for so long it will hardly be significant
• slower combat in general as less DPS will mean longer fights Since DPS is scaled down, one could certainly argue that mobs HP should be scaled down too
• potential for characters wielding two weapons to get the -2 penalty on attack rolls without actually making an off-hand attack This is no different than it is now for no twf/twf/itwf
• reduced value for the TWF feat chain, making it a less attractive option The alternative to 2wf, 2H twitch, will be scaled down more than 2wf, thus 2wf becomes more attractive. Disregarding 2H twitch, 2wf being less attractive is attractive
• lower ki generation for monks And lower amounts of attacks requiring ki strikes thus increasing damage/ki
• possible difficulty for some classes/characters to obtain full TWF bonuses (STWF) Not to mention increasing the gap between TWF and the rest
• loss of the ability to perform certain types of actions that depend upon separate collision checks for the main and off-hand attacks (double Assassinate, for example), which are A) not gamebreaking in the least, and B) something many people enjoy Minor issue, if warranted a exception for such abilities to retain separate collision detections could certainly be made.

Am I leaving anything out?

red n green stuff.

Another factor I haven't seen mentioned:

This addition of random chances for one or two more attacks as part of your single attack will reduce the feeling of being in control of your character. Even if it doesn't make a difference to the combat outcomes, the player's input actions will have a less direct correspondence to what the character does, loosening the immersiveness. The game will become a bit less visceral.

To have a swing and a miss is one thing, because at least the character did the action (although it failed). But for the character to randomly not do part of the attack makes it seem like he was too lazy to make the attempt. I know the explanation given: "He couldn't find an opening right now". But what it feels like is you're less in control, which starts to dredge up some of the negative recollections of lag experience.

Or if you instead look upon the glass as half full, combat will be less dull and monotone in that you will have a more varied visual stimuli.

One reason I find fighting e.g. undead more dull is the lack of crits. Getting a couple of crits in a row or a streak of vorpals is fun. Likewise getting a lucky streak of off hand procs could be fun, and being unlucky provide a contrast.

[sephiroth1084]

red n green stuff.

So, the changes to TWF will result in:

• inconsistent DPS, which makes decisions on character build and comparison more difficult No more inconsistent than it is now, with sufficient number of attacks it averages out How is the possibility of dealing an off-hand attack on a given animation of ~80% equal to the way TWF functions now, where you know when you're getting your extra attacks?
  
• slower combat from a visual perspective For some builds, based on the speed effect of the barb capstone going unnoticed for so long it will hardly be significant No one thought to look, and the capstone wasn't stacking with Haste or Madstone Rage, from what I've read, which explains why no one was noticing it initially.
  
• slower combat in general as less DPS will mean longer fights Since DPS is scaled down, one could certainly argue that mobs HP should be scaled down too Yes, but there has been no mention of this, and since THF DPS isn't getting reduced in any real way, the argument for reducing monster HP has no teeth.
  
• potential for characters wielding two weapons to get the -2 penalty on attack rolls without actually making an off-hand attack This is no different than it is now for no twf/twf/itwf How do you figure? Right now, you get a -2 penalty (or -4 if using an 1-handed weapon in the off-hand) and gain off-hand attacks. With the change, it is entirely possible for one to be swinging with the penalty, while not getting the additional attacks. And if you were referring to the TWF and ITWF feats, this will be worse than it is currently for them, and has no remedy.
  
• reduced value for the TWF feat chain, making it a less attractive option The alternative to 2wf, 2H twitch, will be scaled down more than 2wf, thus 2wf becomes more attractive. Disregarding 2H twitch, 2wf being less attractive is attractive That's debatable, and, again, twitching is clearly not an intended functionality, and therefore cannot be used to compare or justify the nerf to TWF. TWF being less attractive in the sense that there are other, viable alternatives, is attractive, but actually taking the feats being less attractive is not a good thing.
  
• lower ki generation for monks And lower amounts of attacks requiring ki strikes thus increasing damage/ki That's debatable, and I'm dubious about that ending up as a net gain for monks, rather than a net loss.
  
• possible difficulty for some classes/characters to obtain full TWF bonuses (STWF) Not to mention increasing the gap between TWF and the rest More importantly, increasing the gap between some TWFers and other TWFers much more so than exists currently.
  
• loss of the ability to perform certain types of actions that depend upon separate collision checks for the main and off-hand attacks (double Assassinate, for example), which are A) not gamebreaking in the least, and B) something many people enjoy Minor issue, if warranted a exception for such abilities to retain separate collision detections could certainly be made Again, no mention of this has come up, so we cannot assume that any such exception will be made.

Responses in blue.

Or if you instead look upon the glass as half full, combat will be less dull and monotone in that you will have a more varied visual stimuli.

How will visual stimuli change at all, other than for combat to be slower as a whole?

One reason I find fighting e.g. undead more dull is the lack of crits. Getting a couple of crits in a row or a streak of vorpals is fun. Likewise getting a lucky streak of off hand procs could be fun, and being unlucky provide a contrast.

I'm fairly certain that most people enjoy lucky streaks of vorpals and crits because they are incidental, in that you aren't really paying anything for them. Plus, there will be the memory of the way in which TWF used to function coloring everyone's impressions of the new system. I sincerely doubt that many people will be overjoyed at a streak of off-hand procs.

[Borror0]

So, the changes to TWF will result in:

I would like to contest a few of those points.

"inconsistent DPS, which makes decisions on character build and comparison more difficult"
The random would be minimal. Considering the proc rates would be fairly high, at least at higher levels. The attack rates, however, would be easier as everyone would be on the same baseline. Once that baseline is measured, you only have to factor in the proc rates and voilÃ*.

"slower combat from a visual perspective"
While that is technically true, it's dubious to list it in such a way because it would not apply to everyone. Unless the character benefited from the few alacrity bonuses that got changed (Zeal, Fighter Weapon Alacrity, Tempest, Wind Stance and Acrobat), he will attack just just as fast as before. Even if the character did get nerfed, no character will drop below the attack rate many characters already attacked at.

[R0cksteady]

Just going to check in one more time. Has anyone confirmed whether STWF would require higher dex than GTWF?

[Borror0]

Since DPS is scaled down, one could certainly argue that mobs HP should be scaled down too

Unless the developers felt TWF was doing "just enough" damage and THF "not enough damage," there are no good reasons for them to scale monsters' HP down. However, if that was the case, it makes no sense why they would nerf TWF instead of buffing THF. It would certainly make less people angry.

With the change, it is entirely possible for one to be swinging with the penalty, while not getting the additional attacks.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

sephiroth1084, your knowledge of mathematic is good enough to know what an average is.

[Razcar]

Your comments about code efficiency are worthwhile ; however, the DPS lag issues also occur in Europe, when there may be neither 500,000 nor 100,000 online --- but 50 or 100.

I'm not saying that so many people online won't cause some sort of lag, but the issue being addressed by these changes is NOT a population lag ; but a specific lag appearing in certain scenarios irrespective of how many people may be online at the time.

I have to disagree Natashaelle. I have never seen anything remotely close to the DPS lag we suffer on the US service on the European. And I've played on both the last six months. And I played the raids with fully greensteeled-out parties on both servers (Thelanis and Devourer), and the same software versions.

On the US servers, in Shroud and ToD it begins with the sound effects starting to synch, to a staccato. Then you stop seeing other melees' animations - it looks like they just stand still. Then the boss stops moving on the screen. You will still see you damage numbers. Sometimes everything freezes, including your own animations.

This is usually when the healers cannot get their heals through. And after a 5-10 second freeze like this, the software catches up, deals you all the damage you should had gotten in those 10 seconds and you're dead. If you haven't played raids on the US servers, in well equipped groups, you cannot imagine what a show-stopper this is really.

We had lag on Devourer for a long time in 2008. Mail and bank transactions didn't go through, rubberbanding when running etc. That was eventually fixed. Other than that EU lag has been negligble. This U.S. lag is just in a totally other league.

[Razcar]

What needs to be done is a serious overhaul of the whole combat-code, it needs to be re-written so it can scale to cope with loads 10 times higher than today (10x at least depending on how you implement this).

Yeah, This old souped-up Asheron's Call engine has apparently reached its limits. The game engine cannot cope with the content of the game.
Upgrade the game engine - don't downgrade the content of the game.

[malaquite]

I didn't saw that mentioned, but there are a lot of pages now. Im a paladin, aiming to TWF. One of my reasons was the spell Holy Sword. In the case where twf would be dumbed down, the devs should add more 2HF weapons available for this spell.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Or sell respec tokens to everyone?

This is exactly what I was thinking when I first posted in this thread but got the tinfoil hat ban

I mean come on they just happen to announce the release of a new brand of heart of wood and this announcement on the same day

[garlor]

I have one suggestion which has no need to change game mechanics, put faster cpus and/or increase bandwidth limit per client ( come on, a limit of 20kbps for each client is way too low, even the ancient ultima online has a higher limit )