Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Emili]

...most when I switch between characters without shutting down the game. Memory size keeps increasing. you should spend some time looking for memory leaks or failures to release unused memory.

Harbage collection is poor in this respect also...

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I think something important for Turbine to note in general is the fact that there have been many players who have stated they will quit paying for this game if this change is implemented, whereas none of those whom have supported the change have stated they will quit if the change is not implemented. Regardless of what happens, everyone needs to understand that MMOs are a product.

I know people who have quit over the lag. They might come back if the lag went.

Garth

[Emili]

Just a note... Riftbow done told me he ran a ToD tonight. As such one of the party had bright idea for lag in part two... they intended on only four of seven melee attack the boss during the kiting to keep from lagging... their result in several attempts was failure due to not quite enough dps, the kiter having to deal with four to six shadows and the FvS and two clerics eventually run out of mana.

Yet most the completes I have in ToD were under what people call dps lag... the blind heal and the wing and prayer of the kiter - yet prevails - my suggestion be to most of you, get your ToD's done now as this quest will be a lot different when most kiters will have four or more shadows to deal with.

[Adoyall]

When someone says there is a lag issue I have to wonder why they got rid of servers instead of keeping them and limiting the number of toons per server? ya my buddy just started playing and we want to play together, well if that is the case set something up to allow a player to change servers without paying, could be done with the new person adding a name into a "recommended by" space at sign-up or something.

Limited number of servers is going to cause lag issues, that should be obvious.

[REALb0r3d]

Just piggyback the offhand strike on the first swing.
Do this for all offhand strikes.

No nerf to DPS. 1 less calculation per 2 hits. 3 less calculations to attack chain.

Done.

You're working a nerf in by saying this is less calculation, most of the time.
See this is potentially more swings, but mostly not.
I'm finding it impossible to be eloquent...

And how does the THF barb tank most any raid where someone is looking for a hate tank?
Is it because their DPS is lower than the TWF, where the DPS is king?

[Coldin]

Anyone who knows networking knows not enough bandwidth causes LAG or Packet Loss depending on the rate limiter setup their ISP uses.

Code may be efficient when 100,000 people are playing but it may not be as efficient when 500,000 people are playing. There is a limit to how efficient code can be made. Once at this limit hardware and bandwidth are your only choices.

Also this is not code efficiency this is recoding taking away functionality. Big difference.

It is most likely not a single problem and this imay be the cheapest way for them to fix it. Recode it once and no more cost.

But isn't this a case of useless code functionality?

If Eladrin simply made each TWF feat add 25% change of an off-hand swing, then it would be more or less identical to what we have now, just in percentage form.

We loose some code functionality in that off-hand attacks no longer check for collisions, but as explained, that was a silly check since it was less than a second after the main hand. Losing double assassinates hurts because of that change, but in general, that was more of an ability to show off.

I still hold that simpler code will make it better, be it 100,000, or 500,000 clients reporting in.

And, I think it's important to remember that Eladrin said they were attacking this problem on multiple fronts. So there's a good chance memory leaks and bandwidth issues are getting attention as well. This combat change just happens to be something they can actually get feedback on.

[Swedishchef]

The join date is the same that you started your game account. I made this account in December 2006, so my join date is December 2006 even though I only created my forum account in January 2007. Unless you tell me that is not your only US DDO account or used someone else's account, there is no way you have had the chance to try the slow combat system we've had in mid-September 2009.

True but if i had a account on th European servers that was started in 2006 it wouldn´t show would it.........
So if you think the start date matters you sir are, well, uninformed shall we say.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

wow this thread has really slowed down... hopefully when Eladrin gets in tomorrow it'll heat up again.

http://i45.tinypic.com/20igmlx.jpg

(ticks are Eladrin posts. Less pretty but live feed here)

Garth

[Bigrtt]

I have to say I'm still now happy with this propsed change. I really don't understand why a whole part of the game has to be changed just because of something that happens in maybe 4 or 5 different areas, and only in the right groups.

Surely there's a better way.

[Asymetric_War]

I have to say I'm still now happy with this propsed change. I really don't understand why a whole part of the game has to be changed just because of something that happens in maybe 4 or 5 different areas, and only in the right groups.

Surely there's a better way.

Exactly. The only places I see lag are on load in, portals in shroud 1, beating harry in shroud 3, and during the shadow kiting in ToD. Other then that no lag no problems. Maybe it's because I invested in good hardware for my gaming rig or maybe I'm just lucky but if the Dev's insist that the only way to fix other people's lag is to nerf my dps,.. well I don't think anyone can blame me for not being terribly excited by this.

let's be honest tho, this isn't about lag, it's about making THF builds even more powerful at the expense of everyone else and especially at the expense of Rogues - the only 2wf class that get's absolutely NOTHING in the proposed changes to compensate them for the 20% cut to offhand attack speed. No double attacks on our main hand. no prestige to bring us back up to full speed. NOTHING. All we get is the chance to agonize over a new extra feat we can't afford.

I had planned to drop another $20 to reincarnate a couple of my toons in anticipation of the new Monk PrE's but I think I'm going to hold onto my money. Turbine isn't getting a single solitary penny more from me until and unless they scrap this nerf.

The good news is there's a new Fallout MMO in the works slated to be released later this year so I won't have to wait long for a new game.

[drow13]

the edited version of the % chart looks like it addressed the tempest class issues that arose in my mind... but theis looks really drastic to the whole TWF ...

[Meetch1972]

Eladrin stated that the Smites could proc on any hit attached to the main strike. Thus if you DS and OH at the same time you could triple Smite... and your head may explode

Aesop

My L20 pally with 400+point exalted smite III will be happy with that, but only on the condition that the exploding head annihilates all heretics in sight. >

So... I'm considering TRing this pally - first reincarnation - in a few weeks, preferably to a DPS build of some kind, and perhaps using the past life. WF unavailable for now, but FVS should be unlocked. Considering the TWF changes proposed, and the chance that perhaps it ain't nerfed due to outcry, what is my best bet for the new build? I'm tossing up TRing as a full/part trap monkey, and then who knows what in the next life - but just how much will the rogue suck in battle? I know PnP rogues are fragile enough, but the mechanics must be different due to the nature of the MMO, and a certain amount of survivability must be possible on all builds. But how non-sucky can this TR be tuned up to without requiring all the rogue uber-gear? Is TRing as a rogue going to be as good a choice as picking pally again, or are they both worse options than FVS? Uncertainty...

This uncertainty is the biggest problem I've got, and I'm sure it impacts on many others much more than I. At most, I'd say put in the DPS lag fix with a 100% proc on the off-hand, then start tuning once the fix is bedded in.

The first rule of system tuning is DO 1 THING AT A TIME. Take a reference benchmark. Put in what you believe to be the fix. Take another benchmark, compare, and quantify the improvement. THEN start the DPS tuning. If you have to roll back for some silly reason then you're rolling back a singular and very core piece, not dragging other DPS changes back with it. If it's too much to do both separately, I'd suggest first change the system to the new method at 100% off-hand proc for everyone who gets it at the moment, so the same fight should take the same time/effort/resources. THEN start tuning the values. Again, if a rollback is required the players should not be guessing at their DPS yoyoing between updates, unless of course the system is fundamentally flawed - but at least you'll know.

As an aside, the only thing I really want fixed is when I CLICK and CLICK and CLICK on a button in one of my shortcut bars, and nothing happens. Then click on another button in there and that works, then back to the original button and that then works - or make sure I've got the right bar selected and hit 0 - that works too. Gives me the %#$^s.

[bobbryan2]

I think it's important to differentiate between DPS lag and instance specific lag.

Everyone knows it lags a lot in ToD 2, Shroud 4, and Shroud 5.

Ok... fine. But most of the time, that "DPS lag" is confined to those instances. Why does the lag mostly go away in ToD 3? It's the same amount of DPS....

The difference is Shadowfiends. Shadowfiends are the cause of "dps lag" in ToD 2.

In Shroud 4, it's the blades.

Shroud 5 has gotten better, but the devs have confirmed it was mostly due to particle effects.

This is why you don't see the same levels of DPS lag in the Abbot, or ToD 3, or the Stormreaver, etc....

DPS lag isn't quite as big of a deal as people think. It only compounds terribly coded instances that have other issues. Everyone wants ToD 2 fixed... but let's start with fixing Shadowfiends and whatever they're doing to our systems.

In short: Let's not completely alter the game to change something that will likely not impact these three areas. Fix the encounters... don't modify the combat system.

[Angelus_dead]

Ok... fine. But most of the time, that "DPS lag" is confined to those instances. Why does the lag mostly go away in ToD 3? It's the same amount of DPS....

It's not the same DPS. Not as many players are attacking as consistently in part 3, because some are hanging back to avoid being hit with spells and banishing, others are chasing Orthons, and some are dealing with Suulomades.

Even among the group fighting Horoth they're not trying to DPS as hard, because it will cause trouble if someone accidently pulls aggro from the tank. Part 3 typically starts with one tank fighting the boss solo for a bit, but in part 2 there's no reason for any non-kiter to do anything except damage the boss as quick as you can (unless they're trying to prevent lag of course!).

Oh, and Boots of Anchoring means players don't keep the high attack speed of Haste and Madstone on as fully as they do other places.

The difference is Shadowfiends. Shadowfiends are the cause of "dps lag" in ToD 2.

Yes, in the sense that players can't productively attack Shadowfiends, so they only draw one player away from the boss, unlike Orthons in part 3 that might be killed by several melee or casters.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

True but if i had a account on th European servers that was started in 2006 it wouldn´t show would it.........
So if you think the start date matters you sir are, well, uninformed shall we say.

I don't believe the EU servers got the super slow attack. We got that with the release of DDO:EU (wow, thats confusing naming) and then it disappeared before "mod 9" was release in Europe...I think.

[FluffyCalico]

Could they pop shroud up on the beta server for a week with no blades?
Just to test if it is the blades compounding the DPS the issue into the problem we see?

Perhaps all those blades doing placement and targeting checks on the players drives the instance nuts.

I mean how hard would it be for them to put up a shroud with no blades to see if it helped. We know DPS and swings are part of it but perhaps the blades are too.

In TOD part 2 the shadows have that aura that has to constantly check all around it for players. Could be the same type of thing. Perhaps it only when you combine DPS with tons of AI enemy targeting checks that you get DPS lag.

[bobbryan2]

It's not the same DPS. Not as many players are attacking as consistently in part 3, because some are hanging back to avoid being hit with spells and banishing, others are chasing Orthons, and some are dealing with Suulomades.

Even among the group fighting Horoth they're not trying to DPS as hard, because it will cause trouble if someone accidently pulls aggro from the tank. Part 3 typically starts with one tank fighting the boss solo for a bit, but in part 2 there's no reason for any non-kiter to do anything except damage the boss as quick as you can (unless they're trying to prevent lag of course!).


Yes, in the sense that players can't productively attack Shadowfiends, so they only draw one player away from the boss, unlike Orthons in part 3 that might be killed by several melee or casters.

Well, in my groups, the EXACT same number of people beating on Horoth in 3 as on the Master in 2. What this tells me is that the two encounters are coded completely different. There is a coding problem with Shadowfiends... they lag people out. It isn't the DPS in that encounter, it's the fiends. Yes... DPS lag magnifies these problems. Extremely high DPS groups have issues with the first spawns of shadowfiends.. lower DPS groups do completely fine until he's half dead.

DPS lag is a problem... don't get me wrong. But it's only a big deal because there are other bugs going on.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Could they pop shroud up on the beta server for a week with no blades?
Just to test if it is the blades compounding the DPS the issue into the problem we see?

Perhaps all those blades doing placement and targeting checks on the players drives the instance nuts.

I mean how hard would it be for them to put up a shroud with no blades to see if it helped. We know DPS and swings are part of it but perhaps the blades are too.

As a cleric/fvs almost the only time I have laggy healing in Shroud 4 is when the blades are in. There are exceptions, days when you know even in pt 1 that everything is lagged, but generally its when the blades go in I hit quicken and spam heal because I KNOW what I'm seeing is not people's actual health.

[Veriden]

After reading the OP through four times I finally understand what Turbine is trying to do.

1.) single out monks to blame their attack speed for the lag (which isn't the problem in the slightest)
2.) The devs obviously have never had any love for the monks (the handful of monk items and handwraps proves)
3.) This is the big one: They're trying to make the monk player's rage quit, or at least make them stop playing their monks. Seriously monks are not dps or tanks like other front line fighters they're one shot wonders (once per fifteen seconds for dark monks) and support to make spell casters use a little less sp, and bard buff stackers (light monk fire+light+fire finisher) to ensure your power attacking WF barb can get his dps in...how ever they are over looking one serious thing that makes a monk usable...

WE NEED TO HIT THINGS TO GENERATE KI.

You lower the number of our attacks and you just make it that much harder for us to get into shroud, ToD, and the like. You guys have already screwed up monks enough want to single out a lag cause? FIRE WALL nerf that, after all that is what makes things in ddo that would normally be a challenge a laugh while we dance in the fires leading less than intelligent npcs around in circles...Don't mess with the 'dps lag' from monks.

Nerfing fire wall would be far more beneficial any ways..you'd have far less people exploiting lacking in intelligence npcs. Even mentally handicapped puppies don't jump into a wall of flames willingly even if there is a juicy steak on the other side.

But in the end, monks will be hit the hardest by this and thus we will all be sad face, except for me, time to re-think how to keep monk good stuff. only one ability I haven't found a use for yet, the stupid timeless body. Ooo a 2nd level spell no one ever uses b/c theres no use for it as a 17th level ability...seriously wisen up. Thanks for the neg-reps

[bobbryan2]

As a cleric/fvs almost the only time I have laggy healing in Shroud 4 is when the blades are in. There are exceptions, days when you know even in pt 1 that everything is lagged, but generally its when the blades go in I hit quicken and spam heal because I KNOW what I'm seeing is not people's actual health.

Because, blades have some weird AI/damage calculations that are killing that encounter...