Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

One major issue there. It will encourage more THF builds, but 95% of them will be 20 barb or 20 fighter due to how the mechanics are set up. Hardly a lot of variety there. It will on the flip side kill a ton of multiclass builds and twf builds for things like bards. Not sure if smite will proc on an offhand hook, if it does some twf pali's will remain for sure though.

Speaking as someone who is deeply allergic to the idea of playing a single class toon --- I still think that single class should be encouraged (and rewarded) by the game design, and that the more exploitative flavour of the day MC builds should be actively discouraged, whereas people's deeper multiclassing, more respectful of the spirit of the game, should not be hindered in any way.

Multiclassing needs to remain kind of an art form, instead of being a method to subvert the deeper principles of the game.

[Zargarx]

As with all those (excluding rangers) that had to reach 17 dex (without enhancements) and use 2 (ITWF) or 3 (GTWF) feats, doing a TWF build is a major commitment.

After rereading the first post, I realize that it has serious implications for my favorite char and my second.

I think we need more examples of the impact, so I'll share my favorite 2 builds, both at lvl 12.

One is a warchanter bard, the other a battlewizard. Both are directly aimed at twf including race selection of drow in order to get the enhancement lines for rapier/short sword. Both require a high dex (17) to reach ITWF sacrificing other stats to get there.
Both have ITWF. That means the bard with a BAB of 9 hits twice with the main weapon and twice with the off-hand weapon. As strength is somewhat low, both rely of effects (e.g. wounding, cursing, etc.) to be viable as a support melee class.

Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the proposed change looks like bad for my favorite characters as it will really hurt their already limited melee capabilities. Number of attacks per round drops by 20% from 4 to 3.2.
I'm not clear if the chance of special effects drops even more or if that is only if it the same as the primary weapon?

Feat swaps won't help much for either. A lesser heart (if one magically falls into my lap) could save the warchanter somewhat (despite being drow), but not the wizard without a major play style change.
I feel that this change will finally cement WF as the only real choice for wizard and sorcerers with other races only there for those that want gimped flavor.

These builds, and, like other builds that a significant amount of players have, will be borked by the proposed change. A different solution should be considered without severely crippling dual weapon support melee classes.

p.s. The problem should be broken down further - exactly what & where is it over-powering?
e.g. If Tempest I is a problem, then adjust it (perhaps 5% speed boost and +1 to hit on primary hand when TWF). Yes I also have a Tempest build and agree that they are a bit over powering (but fun to play!).

[avery61]

Great ~ nerfing my favorite class (Ranger) along with the multi-class Ranger/Monk. Not in favor of this at all. Great way to wrap up a wekend, 1st ~ I get downgraded from premium to free, for who know how long, and now this wonderful little announcement.

[rayflo]

I dunno if its been asked but if this happens is there a short window That dungeon alert can be turned off to test and see how the lag is with your intended fix and no da

[walchnigs]

What a polite way to nerf our TWF toons, all wrapped up nicely in a 'reduce lag package'. Do you sell ice to Eskimos?

Since most of my toons are capped and TWF'ers I would be extremely unhappy to see their dps drop.

Most of the lag I hear others complain about, mine is not that bad, could be resolved with better equiped servers.Why not tone down the useless feedback settings from the servers, just like everyone turning off all feedback, unchecking the 'any' box on the who page etc. There are multiple routes to check before changing the way the toon attack and the damage they do.

I think this is going to happen, i think we have no say in the matter and this is just a way for the Dev's to say we gave you a chance to voice your opinion and we went this way. I have spent the better part of 2 years working on my toons, correcting mistakes, adapting to new content etc, i would not want to start over because their simple solution to solve dps lag is to reduce dps.

nailed it right on the head. Upgrade YOUR servers dont downgrade OUR dps pls.

[Alintalkin]

Just a reminder to make sure that feedback is kept in the forum guidelines. (most everyone is doing a great job, and only a few tempers have flared beyond the appropriate point, so keep it up!)

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

^^ I just want to un-bury this as there are many comments about hardware. Though I get the complaint, (I even mentioned such things before the quoted post) it is not relevant. Hardware was upgraded already and DPS lag still stands. All the posts about hardware are doing is cluttering the thread. Also again, I am commenting on the fact that the nerf to TWF is not related to the lag fix, they wanted to "kill two birds with one stone" as the saying goes.

This is coming from a person who is still looking for a revision of these changes (at least to the extent that pure monks using monk weapons should only be nerfed to the extent other full BAB classes [As monks have full BAB when using monk weapons] when that is not the case as other pure BAB chars can get 110, 100 while monks get 110 80). I just hate the idea of people scapegoating this change with by blaming hardware when it has already been stated that upgrades to servers did not fix DPS lag. This was another solution. One that might actually work (possibly).

Edit: As an aside and a little off topic, I just realized that this thread has more then a tenth of the number of posts in it then the total posts Borr0 has. That is a pretty impressive feat. And it means that Borr0 posts fill over 1000 pages worth of posts of this forum O.o

[Paragon]

nailed it right on the head. Upgrade YOUR servers dont downgrade OUR dps pls.

The servers are not the problem. When devs tried to view instances of this DPS lag through the server they saw everything running normally, no lag. They determined that it was a problem with the client, not the server. That is not to say that everyone else needs to upgrade their machines, it simply means that something needs to be changed in the client code to make it run more efficiently during combat-heavy situations. Now it seems that the devs have identified the problem and are trying to attack it by removing unneeded physics checks.

The deal with DPS is completely different. We have an opportunity here to readdress balance among the classes and the various combat styles in addition to making a lag fix. I personally have come to the view that alterations would be a very good thing. DPS needs to be decreased in several places to make this game more balanced and less dps-centric. Along with that, however, we need a fundamental change to the way that quests and content are designed. A closer balance between the dps outputs of THF, TWF, S&B, and Mages coupled with monster HP decreases and changes to make AC/defenses not only useful but important/necessary would only result in much more diverse character designs and a great increase in the value of DDO's gameplay.

If I have to sacrifice some DPS for that, fine.

However, Turbine's hardware has nothing to do with any of it. Please stay on topic.

[Calebro]

The servers are not the problem. When devs tried to view instances of this DPS lag through the server they saw everything running normally, no lag. They determined that it was a problem with the client, not the server. That is not to say that everyone else needs to upgrade their machines, it simply means that something needs to be changed in the client code to make it run more efficiently during combat-heavy situations. Now it seems that the devs have identified the problem and are trying to attack it by removing unneeded physics checks.

The deal with DPS is completely different. We have an opportunity here to readdress balance among the classes and the various combat styles in addition to making a lag fix. I personally have come to the view that alterations would be a very good thing. DPS needs to be decreased in several places to make this game more balanced and less dps-centric. Along with that, however, we need a fundamental change to the way that quests and content are designed. A closer balance between the dps outputs of THF, TWF, S&B, and Mages coupled with monster HP decreases and changes to make AC/defenses not only useful but important/necessary would only result in much more diverse character designs and a great increase in the value of DDO's gameplay.

If I have to sacrifice some DPS for that, fine.

However, Turbine's hardware has nothing to do with any of it. Please stay on topic.

Yet again someone has managed to vocalize my thoughts much more eloquently than I ever could have.
Well said.

[r3dl4nce]

The deal with DPS is completely different. We have an opportunity here to readdress balance among the classes and the various combat styles in addition to making a lag fix. I personally have come to the view that alterations would be a very good thing. DPS needs to be decreased in several places to make this game more balanced and less dps-centric. Along with that, however, we need a fundamental change to the way that quests and content are designed. A closer balance between the dps outputs of THF, TWF, S&B, and Mages coupled with monster HP decreases and changes to make AC/defenses not only useful but important/necessary would only result in much more diverse character designs and a great increase in the value of DDO's gameplay.

If I have to sacrifice some DPS for that, fine.

My fear is they will nerf TWF dps, but mobs will stay the same. Same millions of HP, same ultra high To Hit (making AC useless), same blanket immunities and so on... So longer fights, so more sp needed, so more sp potions bought from store... (especially in the actually low dps parties)

[Coldin]

The servers are not the problem. When devs tried to view instances of this DPS lag through the server they saw everything running normally, no lag. They determined that it was a problem with the client, not the server. That is not to say that everyone else needs to upgrade their machines, it simply means that something needs to be changed in the client code to make it run more efficiently during combat-heavy situations. Now it seems that the devs have identified the problem and are trying to attack it by removing unneeded physics checks.

The deal with DPS is completely different. We have an opportunity here to readdress balance among the classes and the various combat styles in addition to making a lag fix. I personally have come to the view that alterations would be a very good thing. DPS needs to be decreased in several places to make this game more balanced and less dps-centric. Along with that, however, we need a fundamental change to the way that quests and content are designed. A closer balance between the dps outputs of THF, TWF, S&B, and Mages coupled with monster HP decreases and changes to make AC/defenses not only useful but important/necessary would only result in much more diverse character designs and a great increase in the value of DDO's gameplay.

If I have to sacrifice some DPS for that, fine.

However, Turbine's hardware has nothing to do with any of it. Please stay on topic.

I don't think it's even that...though it may be part of the problem.

As Eladrin's post details, it's about communication between server and client. When they test it there, any DPS lag is probably greatly diminished, since the data has a much smaller distance to travel. We see this DPS lag because the data is going back and forth between a dozen clients and the server from all different locations.

[gfunk]

Just wanted to chime in with my thoughts:

1) In general I am against all nerfs because it means we have to re-invent our current characters to re-optimize them. This generally leads to more grind which isn't a good thing in my mind. If we were given some olive branch to help take the sting out of the nerf, that might help: I'm thinking somethihng like green-steel deconstruction, so we can break down our newly gimped weapons.

2) After the last change to attack speeds a few updates ago, I became a bit geneally disenchanted with the combat system. Many players had put alot of effort in here on the forums in order to understand the current state of things, only to have the ground yanked out from under them. For example, Cforces thread concerning attack speed which was a fantastic resource (that has never been completely replaced post attack speed changes).

The lack of clarity about attack mechanisms makes it especially difficult. We had to experimentally determine how various speed buffs stacked, instead of recieving open communication from Turbine. An easy example to illustrate this is the issue with the ranger capstone... Its doesn't seem to function as advertised, but there has been no dev comment concerning this discrepancy. This lack of transparency makes me suspicious of any further changes.

Vague descriptions dont help either, for example the "increased chance" for THF glancing blows. Honestly, how can we be expected to have a valid opinion concerning THF vs TWF vs S&B effectiveness if we have to experimentally deriv all our proc/glancing blow rates (which will then always have a margin of error)? If the devs want good feedback, then they should give us clearer information up front.

3) I am not convinced about "the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. ". It seems pretty clear that TWF would be better for some classes, like monks, rogues and rangers, but THF is becoming far more dominant for Barbarians and to lesser extent Fighters. The dps seems like it is indeed higher for THF barbs vs TWF barbs, and may be a draw for fighters. Of course, THF has other advantages (which I am sure have been addressed given the length of the thread) but I'll mention attack range and the ability to maximize STR (which leads to more stunning blow success which of course leads to more DPS). Perhaps the Devs could clarify this "extreme dominance"

4) Simplifying TWF mechanics seems to make Combat a bit simpler too, and thus more like WOW or LOTRO. THis kind of takes away the "pulse pounding combat" or whatever their tagline is. Taking the fun out of THF (removin neccesity to move) does a similar thing.. moves us closer to point and click combat... yuck.

[IronClan]

The servers are not the problem. When devs tried to view instances of this DPS lag through the server they saw everything running normally, no lag. They determined that it was a problem with the client, not the server. That is not to say that everyone else needs to upgrade their machines, it simply means that something needs to be changed in the client code to make it run more efficiently during combat-heavy situations. Now it seems that the devs have identified the problem and are trying to attack it by removing unneeded physics checks.

If I have to sacrifice some DPS for that, fine.

However, Turbine's hardware has nothing to do with any of it. Please stay on topic.

Well said, long time multiplayer gamers know that lag is a many headed hydra, the simplistic mantra of "upgrade the servers" or "if this works can we dump DA" tells me that maybe Turbine needs to post a primer on just what lag is and the different kinds of things that can go wrong to cause it.

Maybe that with a corresponding tweak to make the DPS loss closer to 10% than 16% to take a little of the sting off; would help the many players who are having the most violently exaggerated reactions to this proposed nerf calm down a little and look at things a bit more realistically. Instead of posting lots of "the sky is falling" and "they're trying to trick us!" and "They are just doing this to sell hearts" types rants in general discussion.

[Elaril]

4) Simplifying TWF mechanics seems to make Combat a bit simpler too, and thus more like WOW or LOTRO. THis kind of takes away the "pulse pounding combat" or whatever their tagline is. Taking the fun out of THF (removin neccesity to move) does a similar thing.. moves us closer to point and click combat... yuck.

I'd take this a step further and say that the general slowing down of combat that is apparently at least at the dev's table, sucks the fun out of one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game. Couple that with the decreased variety in character builds that will likely occur with the elimination of swing speed enhancers and eliminating the twitch aspect of twf, and combat in this game will be dumbed down to the point that it will indeed resemble a point and punch mmo.

As the combat in this game, in my opinion, is the big differentiator between DDO and all the other MMOs, I'd encourage the devs to think long and hard before going forward with any nerf or change that will fundamentally alter it.

[Ollathir]

/snip.

well said G, +1

I understand the need though to bring TWF more in line with THF, S&B...Turn Undead.

[Emili]

Just wanted to chime in with my thoughts:

1) In general I am against all nerfs because it means we have to re-invent our current characters to re-optimize them. This generally leads to more grind which isn't a good thing in my mind. If we were given some olive branch to help take the sting out of the nerf, that might help: I'm thinking somethihng like green-steel deconstruction, so we can break down our newly gimped weapons.

2) After the last change to attack speeds a few updates ago, I became a bit geneally disenchanted with the combat system. Many players had put alot of effort in here on the forums in order to understand the current state of things, only to have the ground yanked out from under them. For example, Cforces thread concerning attack speed which was a fantastic resource (that has never been completely replaced post attack speed changes).

The lack of clarity about attack mechanisms makes it especially difficult. We had to experimentally determine how various speed buffs stacked, instead of recieving open communication from Turbine. An easy example to illustrate this is the issue with the ranger capstone... Its doesn't seem to function as advertised, but there has been no dev comment concerning this discrepancy. This lack of transparency makes me suspicious of any further changes.

Vague descriptions dont help either, for example the "increased chance" for THF glancing blows. Honestly, how can we be expected to have a valid opinion concerning THF vs TWF vs S&B effectiveness if we have to experimentally deriv all our proc/glancing blow rates (which will then always have a margin of error)? If the devs want good feedback, then they should give us clearer information up front.

3) I am not convinced about "the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. ". It seems pretty clear that TWF would be better for some classes, like monks, rogues and rangers, but THF is becoming far more dominant for Barbarians and to lesser extent Fighters. The dps seems like it is indeed higher for THF barbs vs TWF barbs, and may be a draw for fighters. Of course, THF has other advantages (which I am sure have been addressed given the length of the thread) but I'll mention attack range and the ability to maximize STR (which leads to more stunning blow success which of course leads to more DPS). Perhaps the Devs could clarify this "extreme dominance"

4) Simplifying TWF mechanics seems to make Combat a bit simpler too, and thus more like WOW or LOTRO. THis kind of takes away the "pulse pounding combat" or whatever their tagline is. Taking the fun out of THF (removin neccesity to move) does a similar thing.. moves us closer to point and click combat... yuck.

Has been my sentiments likewise as I look upon this...

[Veriden]

wow...ok, I can agree to this if by messing up current attack speed you go out of your way and make as many named (with decent enchantments) handwraps as there are named swords.

First you bend the monk players over and then you wrap the sand paper around an insertion device next comes you know what and you won't be seeing many playing monks....

[xxScoobyDooxx]

As anyone that really knows programming will tell you, efficient code makes a huge difference. Much more than any increase in hardware will do.

Anyone who knows networking knows not enough bandwidth causes LAG or Packet Loss depending on the rate limiter setup their ISP uses.

Code may be efficient when 100,000 people are playing but it may not be as efficient when 500,000 people are playing. There is a limit to how efficient code can be made. Once at this limit hardware and bandwidth are your only choices.

Also this is not code efficiency this is recoding taking away functionality. Big difference.

It is most likely not a single problem and this imay be the cheapest way for them to fix it. Recode it once and no more cost.

[Dentali]

I think something important for Turbine to note in general is the fact that there have been many players who have stated they will quit paying for this game if this change is implemented, whereas none of those whom have supported the change have stated they will quit if the change is not implemented. Regardless of what happens, everyone needs to understand that MMOs are a product. How well the product is advertised is just what gets people to play. Upkeep is what makes people want to keep playing instead of leaving for greener pastures. Sony did not listen to their player base in Everquest, so at least half of it left to play WoW. I am neither for or against either side, because I don't play a 2wf or 2hf class. However, I believe Turbine thinks their player base has more faith in them than they actually do.

All in all, it is Turbine's game and ultimately their decision, but when it comes to business, consumers will only take so many irritating actions from their favorite business until they decide to buy a product from someone else. We'll have to wait until tomorrow to see how this thread pans out, but it's hard to say how they'll respond.

[DelverRootnose]

...most when I switch between characters without shutting down the game. Memory size keeps increasing. you should spend some time looking for memory leaks or failures to release unused memory.

[Emili]

Anyone who knows networking knows not enough bandwidth causes LAG or Packet Loss depending on the rate limiter setup their ISP uses.

Code may be efficient when 100,000 people are playing but it may not be as efficient when 500,000 people are playing. There is a limit to how efficient code can be made. Once at this limit hardware and bandwidth are your only choices.

Also this is not code efficiency this is recoding taking away functionality. Big difference.

It is most likely not a single problem and this imay be the cheapest way for them to fix it. Recode it once and no more cost.

I mentioned that before... I do not see why one swinging smite from a pally has to send 12 separate packets back to my client... is one event - toss them all in the same packet.