Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Naw, we should grind for months to get this epic weapon of pwnage:

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapo...the_Holy_Flame

[Krag]

Well then here you go.
Emphasis red.
Implication: overpowered, and they know it.
Deduction: A nerf will be coming.

Yes, I have read this post. Not even a word about nerfs.

[bandyman1]

Theres a fine line between calling something "powerful" and something "too powerful".

The Epic SoS is very powerful, but it is not OVERPOWERED. There are situations where it is rendered useless and these situations keep it from being too powerful.

It is a **** game that consists of you accelerating your character, what is wrong with throwing players a bone to promote what they are here to do in the first place, HAVE FUN. Its a game.

I don't give a **** if you have one on every toon bro. Check the guild list; It's not as if I don't have access to epic SoS.

But then again, it's not me that you have to convince.

/shrugs.

[Calebro]

Yes, I have read this post. Not even a word about nerfs.

1+1 still equals 2 where I'm from.
Remember the threat that if this change gets reverted that GS will probably be nerfed? The Devs admitting ESoS is overpowered holds the same implications.
They're trying to find a way around that, but you still can't balance a game on that item,.
Period.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

The epic SoS is overpowered against almost all mobs in the game, except perhaps something with both a lot of DR and a lot of fort (of which the only mob I can think of is undead Sor'jek)

Garth

[Dragon-Kin]

I do not understand how a "developer" or team of “developers” could make such a suggestion. There are many ways to reduce lag, nerfing classes that so many players enjoy is a very very bad business decision. Just in my family we have four dedicated players who put our hard earner $$$ into this game. All of us have Monks, and Tempests built around the very ability this proposal is going to take away, what kind of move is that?

Sure we have other toons, but to nerf two of the most enjoyable builds that keep people spending $$$ on the game is the most lame brain idea anyone could every suggest.

I have seen other games that have allowed “developers” to make decisions based on “lag” or “performance” issues. They went out of business because they did not listen to the player community.

My recommendation is to find way to reduce lag without nerfing one of the most enjoyable things in the game - speed of attack. If you want to force this solution better make sure you do an impact study enlisting the opinions of the PAYING CUSTOMERS.

Let the staff that pay the bills make these types of calls that impact so many new and long term players to insure the game survives - there is no doubt this change if implemented will have a direct negative $$$ impact on the bottom line. You will have players leaving this game folks, we can spend our entertainment dollars else where. If every lag issue calls for the nerfing of prime skills many players enjoy and you implement this, what is to stop the next nerf, or the next...

There are many ways to address lag without nerfing the classes/abilities so many of your players get great enjoyment playing.

I am in the technical business, technical staff some times make very bad business decisions attempting to solve a technical problem. Many times the solution easiest to implement cost a business big time, this may be the easiest technical solution but it is a very bad from a business perspective if you guys want to make money. I know that from the four players in my house alone.

Better re-think what is going on here, sound advice from your player community. If I remember correctly that is one of the themes here, listening to the player community, time to do that...

[Borror0]

join date = janaur 2006 - codemaster, pre beta

My point still stands. Since you were on the European servers until October, you didn't get to experience how the attack rate felt when it was 10% slower.

[Visty]

I do not understand how a "developer" or team of “developers” could make such a suggestion. There are many ways to reduce lag, nerfing classes that so many players enjoy is a very very bad business decision.

readin comprehension fail

the nerf isnt tied to the lagfix, its two seperated things

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

[Krag]

1+1 still equals 2 where I'm from.
Remember the threat that if this change gets reverted that GS will probably be nerfed? The Devs admitting ESoS is overpowered holds the same implications.
They're trying to find a way around that, but you still can't balance a game on that item,.
Period.

Remember, it's TURBINE you are talking about. Years may pass between admitting a problem and fixing it.

Yes, SoS is owerpowered. No, you can not assume it will be nerfed any time soon. Until they directly say that SoS is going to be fixed, it stays as standard for high-end THF.

[Vhlad]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

In part 1 TOD you have breaks in the DPS every time the boss flings the melee across the room.

Part 2 TOD is constant DPS, hence more likely to start lagging.

Part 3 TOD will lag just as much as part 2 if everyone has boots and does constant DPS. What usually happens though, is a few DPS are shooting ranged weapons from the other end of the room to avoid banishment and/or someone gets banished (thereby reducing the DPS load). Some DPS may break off for buffs/healing/orthons as well, and if the DPS get stunned for a few seconds that's a DPS break.

Shroud part 1, lag occurs due to constant DPS.
Same with part 4, and part 5 when the boss is boxed in.

During extended periods of constant DPS, the server can't handle the stream of information. We can currently use breaks in DPS to stop/limit lag in raids (i.e. everyone stop beating for 10 seconds). It's not very fun to do that.

Aside from self-inflicted DPS breaks or quest design related DPS breaks (i.e. being flung across the room or AoE stun), DPS lag can be limited by reducing the amount of information during periods of constant DPS, i.e. removing physics checks for off hand, reducing attack rate, reducing glancing blows, nerfing weapon effects, limiting the number of melee DPS in your raid, etc.

Also, depending on party makeup, DPS breaks may not help limit lag at all: for a raid of 8+ hasted TWFs/monks(assuming 2x TOD rings) with bard buffs DPS lag may be immediate.

[Krag]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

Pff... If they announce 20% more dps for mechanics it won't effectively nerf viable prestiges by 20%. Fixing broken class and breaking working one are two different things.

[Gornin]

readin comprehension fail

the nerf isnt tied to the lagfix, its two seperated things

Yes, the nerf is tied to lag fix.

If we are doing less damage, that is less procs to calculate. It is a component of the lag fix, part of it.

That is why all melee toons are being affected by the nerf, just TWF the most, because of their higher CD calcs and proc rate.

[Calebro]

Remember, it's TURBINE you are talking about. Years may pass between admitting a problem and fixing it.

Yes, SoS is owerpowered. No, you can not assume it will be nerfed any time soon. Until they directly say that SoS is going to be fixed, it stays as standard for high-end THF.

After saying this, how can you possibly attempt to use it as a baseline for power?
Power creep = bad.
Power creeps are what CAUSE nerfs to be needed. By using eSoS as a baseline, you'll be adding to the problem, not solving it.

[Visty]

Yes, the nerf is tied to lag fix.

If we are doing less damage, that is less procs to calculate. It is a component of the lag fix, part of it.

That is why all melee toons are being affected by the nerf, just TWF the most, because of their higher CD calcs and proc rate.

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless

[Gornin]

Epic Velah too. According to Durnak, who is right up there with Shade when it comes to THF there is DPS lag with TWFers, but not THFers... despite the fact there is clearly large amounts of DPS involved. Velah isn't as bad about it, since the raid mechanics force you to take breaks and breaks fix it but it is yet another example of DPS lag occurring when fighting stationary targets with TWF but not THF.

+1 rep.

My experience is that there is still lag with a bunch of THF, just not as bad, so I can't completely agree with this assessment.

[Timjc86]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

What is relevant is that the eSoS exists, players have it, and TWF 3/4 BAB classes have to compete against it for DPS spots in groups in end game content.

The fact that not all gameplay happens at level 20 should be kept in mind when balancing combat considering the eSoS, but it should not completely eliminate the eSoS's effect considering balance.

[eonfreon]

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless

Essentially correct.
However, one portion of the lag fix also seems to be the proposed additional change of Alacrity from a speed bonus to a "double strike" chance.

That part it seems is touted as both a "lag fix" and a "twf nerf".

[Gornin]

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless

Quit trying to act like the speed/proc nerf that affects all melee won't lessen the amount of calculation required, which will also decrease the opportunity for lag. Eladrin said it in the OP.

Also, stop trying to ram that nerfing TWF more than the others is a good thing. Any one who thinks TWF is superior all around to THF is just misinformed. I have both types and I play endgame and epics, and both perform quite well in all settings.

[Krag]

After saying this, how can you possibly attempt to use it as a baseline for power?
Power creep = bad.
Power creeps are what CAUSE nerfs to be needed. By using eSoS as a baseline, you'll be adding to the problem, not solving it.

Easy enough. SoS is a solid fact that I can see all around me. Incoming SoS nerf is something imaginary and unrealistic.