Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SkyCry]

Some things work much better in online PC game environment (such as spell points vs spell cast per day) and I think percentage based chances like this are one of those things. Balancing this would be complicated, though, but there's potential.

I'd like to ask devs to keep in mind that some of us really appreciate the variety of builds D&D rules allow... and the transparency of the combat system. In D&D you always know what feat/ability/item/spell does *exactly*, so you can really plan. Please keep this trait of D&D! You're doing a pretty good job so far, but with some exceptions (especially on item special effects and a couple of feats)...

[Geonis]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...01#post2990101

[Consumer]

not a fair comparison now or after the update. Compare a lit 2 greataxe to lit 2 khopeshes.

or compare dual chaosblades on a pure pally versus the esos on a pure pally.

its a very bad argument when you're relying on one sole weapon that cant be used in 100% of content. unlike shroud weapons, which when released replaced nearly everything, and a single min 2 or lit2 was applicable in nearly every encounter (and still is)

I'm sorry I'm not a fan of comparing max TWF DPS against average THF DPS, if I compare a build it uses the best weapon it can get for the circumstance.

It seems people want TWF and THF to have different DPS but won't accept that they do and it favors THF.

Also comparing a Pally, I thought you wanted an average comparison, not situational DPS.

[spinningmantis]

As long as they offer a free Lesser Reincarnate to every character after a major change like this goes through, I'll be ok with whatever is best for the game's playability. Many other MMO's have offered a free full respec after major changes.

[countesscrow]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...01#post2990101

Yeah,

Mine was killed on the monk forums to. Personally I think everybody has already said what needs to be said and this thread should be locked.

When DDO staff gets back tomorrow they can read through all 100 and something pages and start a new thread with whatever proposed changes there thinking of now.


Chaotics

[Imnisc]

If nerfing dps allows other changes that ends up making the game better, go for it.
I would scrap the doublestrike thing tho, ugly and unnecessary.

How about:

Make greater two weapon fighting require 19 dex as it should, rangers pick path like monks
Remove all alacrity and clicky speed boosts, if they must stay convert to ignoring some percentage of fortification
Haste adds 1 attack at full bab (ie. 20/20/15/10/5 for a 20 fighter)
twf'ing with no feats or only two weapon fighting gives 1 offhand attack
with imp. twf 2 offhand attacks
with greater twf 3 offhand attacks

The animation cycle must be arranged so frequency of attacks increase toward end of cycle.

[SquelchHU]

IMO you really need to re-read the OP you're making generalizations that are clearly disingenuous and intended to paint a narrative you want to tell, instead of the truth which is there in black and white in the OP and subsequent posts. I wont point it all out to you because i realize this is less about your understanding the OP and more about how you want to portray the developers. But that said the reduction in 10% speed boosts via turning it into double strikes, is clearly an attempt to reduce overall server overhead during combat... Maybe they think it will take the "peak" off of lag spikes or extreme examples of lag like DPS lag. "nerfing" TWF because it's a tad overpowered is in the same discussion because they need to get rid of the 10% haste boost of T1 at the same time they turn all the other haste effects into double strikes...

He clearly states the cause is due to extra calls from the offhand, and these will be corrected by tying them to the mainhand. Therefore it is clear that if the offhand is not making those function calls, but is instead riding on the mainhand function call, there are far fewer function calls.

He then goes on to say that the offhand will have an x% chance of triggering, which is lower than before.

If the cause of DPS lag is extra function calls, and they're not doing that anymore then the offhand could trigger at 80%, or its original numbers, or 300% and not affect DPS lag.

The truth is there in black and white.

Point 1: We want to correct DPS lag by reducing the server load caused by offhand attacks.
Point 2: We want to reduce the damage output of dual wielders by reducing the frequency of offhand attacks.

Maybe surprising but I agree with your basic stance that this Nerf harsh as it stands. a 16% reduction in DPS is too much, IMO maybe 8-10% and then tweak a little if needed would be better. And I agree with your previous post that PART of the reason TWF is so popular is that so many classes are directed towards it (Paladins getting two smites per use when TWF for example instead of one per with THF) I mean Paladins are the classic S&B and THF class... why pigeon hole them towards TWF? Probably that second smite was a bug that turned into a feature. Anyway I just think you're catalyzing and polarizing the issue unnecessarily by adding mischaracterizations, and hyperbole.

Not a bug. Most effects that trigger on a melee attack will occur on both mainhand and offhand, if you attack with both that sequence. Ki strikes, trip, stunning blow... A THF will get these effects on their glancing blows if they get a glancing blow this sequence.

If Paladin smite was 7 * 3/level for one handed weapons and a higher number for two handed weapons you'd see more THF Paladins. (the lack of good two handed Holy Sword options doesn't help either)

[Calebro]

Lol, negative rep for telling someone who clearly has little gaming experience to stay out of the discussion or at least not enter it as if he knew what he was talking about?

Questioning his experience is an ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the poster.

That's OK Squelch, I got neg rep for answering a question about why I was at work on Saturday if that makes you feel any better.

[mourne]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

IF the nerf goes in as proposed in the chart, STWF is a must. Kensai TWF are gettting a big fat nerf bat in the change. Adding STWF to increase the off hand for a fighter would save you tons of flames from alot of players.

[Muerta]

So not going to read through this all, has it been suggested to get rid of some of the die rolls alltogether? Like get rid of critical check, any fighter is going to make it anyway. And to make greensteel only a static dam with all the variants at tier 1 6 dam, 2 10 dam and tier 3 15. so you will do 31 on a 20, and 16 evertime a crit happens. This may not appease all, but in the interest of lag for everything in the high end why not, and not worry about loss of hits, keep that the same. Green steel code is its on in a way? And can see some stuff tied to crit acc, but add that backend into the base dam for when a crit happens. This would leave burst dam for some that want it. This does not solve the problem of monk dam, but there is not usually a room full of monks either and getting the high end gear to do shocking burst, holy burst, cold bust of pure good is not for all of em.

[Pfold]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

[kingfisher]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...01#post2990101

if anyone does not believe this they are dense. the lag issue is not even being dicussed anymore! its all about he nerf to twf, which is turbines true goal i guess, although i cannot figure out why. i thought it was more money grubbing at first, but i think they will lose way more business than they will gain from this. what sense does this make to anyone? the lag is not that bad, i mean really its not, a couple places sure, but why not change THOSE places before changing 60% of all the active melees out there? so all this for lag in 4 quests is hard to believe....so whats the real reason? has got to be twf, they are taking the big hit. but why? what would be worth losing a bunch of players that have been around FOREVER? plus some of the new ones too? someone tell me this please?

if given a choice between bringing up these changes and keeping the game the same as it is today, HOW MANY PLAYERS WOULD CHOOSE THIS CHANGE?

if they are truely wanting to fix lag, why not come up with several proposed changes and see which one is better? is that not what the test servers are for?

how can they even consider moving forward with this in any fashion given the uproar it has cause while just MENTIONED? imagine how bad it will be if it goes live as intended?

what i dont get is who at turbine has the s/m streak? why go to all this trouble to build up your mmo after suffering through years of little-to-no new content etc, take a big gamble on ftp, watch it work great, rolling oiut updates at a nice pace, adding players, winning awards, and then BAM, hey lets change the whole friggin combat dynamic (which is without a doubt the best part about ddo compared to other mmos), nerf a bunch of toons back to the stone age, blame it on lag, and see what happens? if they go through with the said changes it would be, BY FAR, the dumbest thing turbine has ever done, and that my friends is saying something.

[Angelus_dead]

Adding STWF to increase the off hand for a fighter would save you tons of flames from alot of players.

It looks like adding STWF would increase the complaints, as it means that TWF fighters take less of a nerf than TWF paladins, rogues, bards, clerics, favored souls, and monks. That unfairness leads to dissatisfaction.

If you check this thread, you'll notice there already is a large amount of heated feedback on that exact subject.

[Cyr]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

Eladrin,

This is one of the major failures of this design flow. Tempest 1 and 2 actually are very mediocre in this new 'system'. In fact, it completly guts any reason and toon who splashed 6 ranger for tempest 1. Tempest 1 requires 3 feats. 2 are feats you might consider buying, might being the operative word and one is a feat no one would buy except for the tempest requirement. Right now for 3 feats you get a PrE which does half of what a single feat gives you per step. That is very poor bang for the buck when you would just be better off being pretty much any other class TWF that has a full bab bonus due to their PrE's actually doing something useful for you.

So not only is tempest horribly nerfed, but it is also mostly useless comparativily. I really don't understand the logic behind any of this lets nerf the heck out of twf, but what is more bewildering is that the method indicates a lack of understanding about what build choices people face with certain twf characters.

[sir_odin]

Can't see how THF gets nerfed, i would rather said that it get's buffed. with the suggested implementation a fighter with capstone and DoQ (docent of quickening) would get 20% more mainhand since THF hits counts as mainhand. ATM kensai with eSoS is 'top of dps' how is another 10% dps gonna help the lag?

i guess we see LFM like when the level cap was 14-16 only that 'fighter & barbs only...... have eSoS.... PS. ill myDDO you!!!'

why not just slow down the animation instead of rebuilding the core of the game.

leave it, turn down animation and monster HP and save your brilliant ideas for DDO II.


EDIT: bringing enchantments, feats and Pre that boost 'doubletap' would even unballance the game more, TWF would be like midgets with forks and THF would be chuck norris with lightsaber

[Kevlar]

The TWF nerf is because some think,feel believe or confirmed TWF is grossly overpowered compared to THF, taking into consideration or not taking into consideration the cost of creating an effective grossly overpowered TWF. Add in the elimination of the speed boosts, Ie Tempest I, Monk wind stance I-IV, Fighter Capstone needing to be removed.

Edit: speed boosts that stack with haste.

I wish we all would make up our mind. First monks are gimped for a myriad of reasons (green steel, crit range, etc) and now they're lumped in with an overpowered group.

[Aesop]

It looks like adding STWF would increase the complaints, as it means that TWF fighters take less of a nerf than TWF paladins, rogues, bards, clerics, favored souls, and monks. That unfairness leads to dissatisfaction.

If you check this thread, you'll notice there already is a large amount of heated feedback on that exact subject.

STWF is a HORRIBLE IDEA.

for the reasons mentioned above

Of everything proposed and suggested that is the worst of the ideas... Same as I said when it was first hinted at.


Aesop

[Aesop]

Can't see how THF gets nerfed, i would rather said that it get's buffed. with the suggested implementation a fighter with capstone and DoQ (docent of quickening) would get 20% more mainhand since THF hits counts as mainhand. ATM kensai with eSoS is 'top of dps' how is another 10% dps gonna help the lag?

i guess we see LFM like when the level cap was 14-16 only that 'fighter & barbs only...... have eSoS.... PS. ill myDDO you!!!'

why not just slow down the animation instead of rebuilding the core of the game.

leave it, turn down animation and monster HP and save your brilliant ideas for DDO II.


EDIT: bringing enchantments, feats and Pre that boost 'doubletap' would even unballance the game more, TWF would be like midgets with forks and THF would be chuck norris with lightsaber

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.

[IronClan]

[snip] Turbine wants everyone to be a THF barbarian

It's funny but this works even better in reverse:

Turbine wants you!
Be a Paladin... TWF...
A Rogue! ... TWF...
A Fighter!... TWF...
A FvS!... TWF
Or a Ranger!... TWF...

We'll even give you more choices, you can use two Faith based weapons with FvS, two weapon double smites with Paladins, dual Kensai specialized weapons with Fighters, and of course Tempest with Rangers (and every other multiclass that goes 6 ranger)...

If that's not enough choices you have the choice of Khopeshes!

[IronClan]

No idea who you play with lol.
Its pretty clear an epic sos destroys lit II khopeshes atm and will continue to do so after this update in the hands of a Fighter.

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...