Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Consumer]

Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? No
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? No

Fixed that for you.

[IronClan]

A little off topic, but in the efforts to reduce overall lag and is an easy thing to change in any update....

Turn Off the Checkbox in the WHO tab on the Social Panel.

Rant explained below....

Currently the checkbox is defaulted on and is set to all classes for all levels. Now consider that every player on the server is defaulted to check for every other player coming and going from the server. I believe it is a serious waste of server resources and can be easily tested by any individual player. Login track the time while you are stuck in place waiting for everything to load. Login again and type /who wwwww . then press enter. you will see that you become active much more quickly since you are no longer collecting data on other players. I have personally noticed a difference in game and in comabt as I belive this removes data from the overall bandwith of data coming and going from the server.

I have been asking for this change for almost 2 years now and still the default is set on.

The only time I use the who tab is when I am actively looking for either a specific person, class, and usually defined within specific levels. There is no reason to have this defaulted to the on position for levels 1-20 and all classes.

Now back to the disgruntlement for all my multiclass 2WF....

/signed +1 rep at the very least allow my choices to STICK ... Forgetting my settings every login and forcing me to load every single player on the server unless I type /who asdf and interupt it... did they hire a frozen cave man coder from 1989 to do the UI?

[Zenako]

This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking..

um, the irony of this post in this thread is almost a bit much...

If we had all woken up on the first day of the next update and had this change imposed on us, then it would have been without notice. Using over the top hyperbole does not serve your arguement in the least.

Yes it will be a change. It will actually be a rather subtle change to many players, since many players are not at the levels where such things matter a lot. (Of course nor did they experience DPS related lag either.) You need a certain number of levels and feats to even get to the effects of lost hooks. To those to whom it does matter, it matters.

I am still seeing however a lot of focus on limited aspects of the change, while it appeared that El had a more sweeping vision of "the plan". This entire exercise is likely driven by some of their experience with other lag related changes that were proposed and tested on Lammania in the past. One of the reasons for changes to saving throw frequency and trying to introduce the Heroic Surge mechanic was to lower the number of active controlled mobs in each instance and therefore on the server. Pathing algorithms were discussed and the more mobs you have the quicker the burden of the algorithms grew. it was more or less exponential. Someone with 20 charmed mobs, was placing a huge load on the processor. By ensuring that it was next to impossible to get that many charmed troops you avoid those loads.

Of the various methods employed, the increased save frequency made it live (and has all but killed off Enchantment as a viable magic school in many cases), while the Heroic Surge feature did not go live as it was seen on test, as it would have killed off everything else that could control mobs (including bard songs).

[SquelchHU]

you forgot the great evasion nerf of 2008

That was a bug fix, it only amounted to -1 AC, and even if that was a character ruining thing replacing 1 level 10 with no raid loot is infinitely easier than replacing 1 to many level 20s with a great deal of raid loot. No comparison.

After all, Batman is one build out of how many?

TWF is one melee style out of two (Ranged was made irrelevant before official release, SAB expired not too long after).

Given that there are seven melee classes if you do not count the battle caster sorts and up to eleven if you do, it is very clear that anything that changes TWF will affect far more characters than anything that affects Evasion in medium or heavy armor.

It is even not so surprising that TWFers outnumber THF, since they'd do that regardless of if TWF is better, THF is better, or they had different advantages and disadvantages.

Bard: Could be THF, but Inspire Courage means TWF is better for them.
Barbarian: THF, was really only TWF in the time of WoP, where only quantity of attacks (and crit rage boosted crit ranges) mattered.
Cleric: If battle cleric, tends towards TWF.
Favored Soul: If melee oriented, tends towards THF.
Fighter: TWF or THF. THF seems more common.
Monk: TWF, since THF requires vastly inferior weapon types.
Paladin: TWF, due to smite mechanics.
Ranger: TWF, since that's the only one their class supports.
Rogue: TWF, since SA means only quantity of attacks matters.
Sorcerer: If battle mage, THF.
Wizard: If battle mage, THF.

So of the 7 classes that commonly melee you have one pressed towards TWF and four pigeonholed into it. Then you have two more that gravitate towards THF. And if you bring the other four into it THF gets some more showing, but this is primarily because THF is cheaper.

OF COURSE TWF IS MORE COMMON! Statistically, unless the TWF classes are marginalized out TWF will get more representation because there's more classes to represent it.

*record skipping sound*

...unless the TWF classes are marginalized out...

[Hanza]

I rarely post on the forums. I am a paying costumer and have been for about 4-5 years. I am a fan of pen & paper. This seems to take ddo very far away from it. I would ask that this chance not take place. I may stop my premium account and finally give up on this game.I think after so much success in recent months it would be a mistake to make such a huge percentage of your costumers angry.

[sephiroth1084]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

Actually, this stance is irrelevant. He may have experience in the end game without having a MyDDO page to prove it, or may simply wish to not share that information. What is relevant is what his stance(s) is (are).

Attacking him rather than engaging in real debate is just dirty politicking and has no place here.

[SquelchHU]

Questioning his experience is an ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the poster.

So it is acceptable to speak on a subject in such a way that makes it quite apparent that the person speaking has little to no idea what they are talking about, but it is not acceptable for someone to ask for proof of credentials to show that the other person does? Really?

You'd have a point if I questioned his experience in an insulting manner 'Lol, Calebro is a noob with only lowbie toons so he can't talk.' but this was not the case.

Yes, there's lot of strangeness in D&D 3.5 that would make this game become unplayable. That system has been so thoroughly raped by PnP powergamers (and by WotC themselves)that without extreme DM supervision and selection it is a joke.

While this is true, it has no relevance to the merits (or lack thereof) of THF and TWF, in D&D or in DDO.

[Aashrym]

This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking.

Maybe casters don't realize this, but this would be tantamount to making casters memorize a certain number of spells they can use each per day and not based off their mana. It is MEGA huge for meleers across the board.

They need to do this smart, they need to do this carefully. I'm starting to fear for the life of the game.

If this wasn't notice what was it?

Just sayin'

[Borror0]

So it is acceptable to speak on a subject in such a way that makes it quite apparent that the person speaking has little to no idea what they are talking about, but it is not acceptable for someone to ask for proof of credentials to show that the other person does? Really?

If he is as ignorant as you say he is, you should be in the ability to demonstrate his ignorance by refuting his arguments.

[IronClan]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

The underlying question is why are you muddling up a thread that's supposed to be about feedback with your little personal war against one person who doesn't want to whip out his Epeen just because you and Galacticus are holding yours between your fingers and wiggling them about like school boys?

MyDDO might mean something in some little munchkin-land of: "my uber character means I am uberz IRL!" but what matters here is your actual argument, the fact that you two can't argue on merit and need to grasp for MyDDO straws suggests you can't refute his arguments intelligently so you're looking for something about his characters to hold up and say "see don't listen to him, he has a gimp character! get the torches and pitchforks!".

Sorry if this is seen as a flame, Devs feel free to delete when you delete all their pointless goading...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Originally Posted by LookingForABentoBox View Post
Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? No
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? No

Fixed that for you.

I this a poll? Can I vote too?

[SquelchHU]

I'm not going to stick my head in the STWF fight, but regarding the change to twf feats:

Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? >NO<
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? >NO<
If so, what's the problem?

For the record, I have a level 19 ranger/rogue with monk splash that uses 2 weapons and a level 14 paladin that uses falchions

Tempest costs 4 feats. 3 at tier 1, 1 more at tier 3.

Before, the benefit of tempest was as follows:

Tier 1: +10%/+10%.
Tier 3: +0%/+27.5%.

Now, the benefit is as follows:

Tier 1: +0%/+10%.
Tier 2: +0%/+10%.
Tier 3: +5%/+0%.

Spending 3 feats for +10%/+10% was worthwhile regardless of whether you stopped at 6, or went up to 18 and paid one more for another +0%/+27.5%. Spending 3 feats for +0%/+10% is not worthwhile for 6 levels. Spending 4 feats for +5%/+20% is not worthwhile either.

And then you remember that STWF is one feat, and gives almost as much as all four of them combined.

Therefore one of the following is true:

STWF has prereqs that can be hit without a respec. As in Dex 17. Tempest is completely dead, as everyone ditches it and frees up three feats.

STWF does not have prereqs that can be hit without a respec. As in Dex 19 or so. In which case it is Rangers as a whole who are dead.

Actually, this stance is irrelevant. He may have experience in the end game without having a MyDDO page to prove it, or may simply wish to not share that information. What is relevant is what his stance(s) is (are).

Attacking him rather than engaging in real debate is just dirty politicking and has no place here.

And his stances suggest he does not have the requisite experience to speak on the subject, therefore asking him to confirm that he does in fact have that experience via MYDDO or screenshot is quite relevant.

It would be just like if I started claiming that 100 HP is 'fine' at level 12, because I never get hit. This is an easy claim to prove false, and if I actually said it it would strongly suggest that level 12 was my highest character (and that I was wrong even then, as there's still plenty of things that can kill a 100 HP character in that level range).

And if I did this, it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to demonstrate that I had knowledge of the game from Gianthold on, because if I did then I would revise those false comments into the correct ones. And if I did not, then I would not be qualified to speak on the game as a whole and should be silent on the matter. Both of which are fair and reasonable reactions.

So no, I and others are not engaging him in real debate because he does not have the material to debate with. I have however debated with others that were qualified to speak on the subject.

And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated. Then if someone says no to it, you can say 'Wait, you're against [insert positive thing]?' In this case, a lag fix? When in fact they may very well have no problem with a lag fix, but when forced to vote on both it and something undesirable as a single package (DPS nerf) they are likely to vote 'no' to the whole.

It's bullying people into accepting things they don't want.

Just like the not so subtle threat that if DPS isn't nerfed, then Greensteel would be... even though it was called unrelated to the lag fix and yet worded as if the two were inseparable.

[Therilith]

I am a fan of pen & paper. This seems to take ddo very far away from it.

Really? How so?

[SquelchHU]

The underlying question is why are you muddling up a thread that's supposed to be about feedback with your little personal war against one person who doesn't want to whip out his Epeen just because you and Galacticus are holding yours between your fingers and wiggling them about like school boys?

MyDDO might mean something in some little munchkin-land of: "my uber character means I am uberz IRL!" but what matters here is your actual argument, the fact that you two can't argue on merit and need to grasp for MyDDO straws suggests you can't refute his arguments intelligently so you're looking for something about his characters to hold up and say "see don't listen to him, he has a gimp character! get the torches and pitchforks!".

Sorry if this is seen as a flame, Devs feel free to delete when you delete all their pointless goading...

It doesn't matter if his TWF(ers) are uber or not. What matters is that he has some. Even if they suck, that would still mean he has experience with TWF endgame.

It is you (and others) who assume this is about epeen, and it is you (and others) who have continued to bring this up for an additional 15 pages after I dropped the subject against him for the sole and express purpose of trolling me for neg rep (and just as I suspected, the moment you hit 1,500 you immediately pursued your personal vendetta against me).

Notice how I STOPPED TALKING TO HIM around page 105 or so? But people kept bringing it up anyways, because it's perfectly acceptable to speak about something you have no actual experience with?

[Bigrtt]

How about instead of lowering DPS output, we find those areas where DPS lag is common...add a 'slow time' effect to that area of the dungeon, essentially it's doing the same thing right? Shroud pt4 for example.

[sephiroth1084]

And his stances suggest he does not have the requisite experience to speak on the subject, therefore asking him to confirm that he does in fact have that experience via MYDDO or screenshot is quite relevant.

It would be just like if I started claiming that 100 HP is 'fine' at level 12, because I never get hit. This is an easy claim to prove false, and if I actually said it it would strongly suggest that level 12 was my highest character (and that I was wrong even then, as there's still plenty of things that can kill a 100 HP character in that level range).

And if I did this, it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to demonstrate that I had knowledge of the game from Gianthold on, because if I did then I would revise those false comments into the correct ones. And if I did not, then I would not be qualified to speak on the game as a whole and should be silent on the matter. Both of which are fair and reasonable reactions.

Again, false. He may have that experience. I know people who managed to get by at that level with ~100 HP.

I manage to get by most of the time in epics on my wizard with ~300 HP, have completed large sections without taking any damage at all, and have completed many without deaths, including the otherwise fairly fatal DQ 2 without dying, and without Evasion.

Experiences vary. If you disagree with his position or claims, disagree with them in a real and constructive fashion, but attacking him and calling for proof of his credentials beyond his claims of is experience is fairly pointless and merely detracts from conversation and debate.

I can, to some degree, discuss programming, for example, despite having virtually zero experience in that realm, but I also don't claim to. Calebro has stated that he has played the endgame and has played epics, but did not enjoy them. What more is required?

And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated. Then if someone says no to it, you can say 'Wait, you're against [insert positive thing]?' In this case, a lag fix? When in fact they may very well have no problem with a lag fix, but when forced to vote on both it and something undesirable as a single package (DPS nerf) they are likely to vote 'no' to the whole.

My impression is that the TWF nerf does represent some impact upon addressing DPS lag, though, yes, the way in which this has been presented and worded is somewhat misleading.

That said, it also seems that we may be able to block the nerf in this fashion after testing it on Lama.

Just like the not so subtle threat that if DPS isn't nerfed, then Greensteel would be... even though it was called unrelated to the lag fix and yet worded as if the two were inseparable.

Which is not an entirely unreasonable possibility, as GS is clearly very overpowered, and causes problems with the entire loot system, and may, in and of itself, be contributing to lag.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

How about instead of lowering DPS output, we find those areas where DPS lag is common...add a 'slow time' effect to that area of the dungeon, essentially it's doing the same thing right? Shroud pt4 for example.

feedback from the last attempted nerf of attack speed showed that players really don't like the speed that their arms move being nerfed. While this change does reduce a few classes by around 10% or so, the major fix that will hopefully reduce lag is the removal of 50% of the physics hit box checks.

Garth

[geoffhanna]

... a whole lotta stuff, 20% of which is relevant and actually quite well stated...

Your arguments are deserving of consideration. Your other stuff penalizes those who try to consider your arguments. I believe you will do yourself a favor if you stick with just the arguments.

[Razcar]

While this is true, it has no relevance to the merits (or lack thereof) of THF and TWF, in D&D or in DDO.

Of course it has, for those people that keeps going to the D&D 3.5-well and drone about how happy we should be that TWF is even remotely useful in DDO because in D&D it's like this and like that. How TWF works in D&D is as irrelevant as how e.g. wizards work in D&D, or grazing hits (what?).

[Krag]

Are you saying that TWFers will be gimp because you have actually done the math and compared it to THF, or are you simply saying that any decrease in DPS is unacceptable to you no matter what?

Actually most of the TWFers already are gimps and the rest is very close. Care for the numbers? Squelch and Shade have provided them.