Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Visty]

See above

to your red comment: no, 55% is correct as the capstone doesnt give 10% attackspeed anymore, just 10% chance for a double hit

thats why theres the 110% for mainhand

€: so many posts befor mine went off, lol

[MateCarefor]

I am looking forward to contributing as much time as I can to the test server to help y'all work on this change.

Gut response:
Thanks for acknowledging there is lag and trying to engineer solutions.
I have seen 'other' games/companies that deny deny deny.. so I once again commend you and your team for trying to head DDO in the right direction.

My Confusion:
I get the lag being reduced by limiting calculations required because of modeling, or physics, etc.; at least I can see the logic in that being a problem.
What I am a bit confused on, is if you are adding additional proc effects, like Double Strike, that cause calculations/animations/effect, how does that lessen lag?
If I triple smite a boss with a Min II, as well as 3 other folks, aren't we all 'lagging' while the server bounces back to us what the other clients did and the result and back again, etc etc?
(I know, very vague)
I guess, what I am curious about, is how is adding more calculations for procs, and more damage effects (and more spew in the combat log) going to 'reduce lag'?

Isn't it really more of a TWF mechanic change that in some way 'may' be tied to minimizing lag?
Just a gut comment - I will read the thread more closely, and look for the posted notes on the test center.
(Apologies if I am totally off-base)

[idiotsync]

I beta tested this game, preordered it and got it at launch. Played to 10 (the current cap at the time) and saw everything. Decided to stop until more content got added and ended up forgetting about DDO for a long time.

Well I came back recently since it's free now, dropped a little money in the store to buy stuff for my account rather than sub. Made a TWF character since I used to play a caster and now this... goddamn this is some crazy "welcome back" for me. Has me asking myself why I am coming back to this game years later if they are still making sweeping changes to the combat system. I want a game where the mechanics are on firm ground. Not a game that is acting like it's in the first launch year and making huge changes that affect my characters.

[Tharlak]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

You nailed it.

This is a TWF nerf under the guise of fixing lag.

[Glenalth]

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

Weird, I always thought that's what the attack roll was.


I'm not seeing any issues with the actual process being used, but the reduced damage is going to anger a lot of people.

[ViolentEnd]

If I am reading all this correctly, my TWF Barb who I have TRd, ground for gear, crafted, and built to hit everything with every swing, is now losing 45% of my off-hand attacks?

and yet monks and rangers are only losing approximately what 5-10%?

/sad panda

Another thought ... I guess everyone who has taken oversized twf gets a free feat now, as off-hand attacks are proced from main hand attacks?

[Valindria]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.

Don't forget the calculation for double strike.

[Asketes]

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.
Two handed weapons already seem to proc less glancing blows before, that and the WF Weapon Aptitude is broken, and the Barbarian extra THF procs don't apply properly. So now we will see less glancing blow procs. There seems to be such a low chance at the proc to begin with, why lessen that to zero?

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.


Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

Build                Main-hand    Off-hand
20 Fighter (Alacrity)     110%    55% (20(base) 15(twf) 10(itwf) 10(gtwf) = 55
Shouldn't this be 65 b/c alacrity gives an additional 10%?
 20 Paladin (Zeal)     110%    55% same here, assuming zeal

For the most part, I think this system entails a new step for DDO, controlling lag, lessening dps so that monsters may not need a bajillion hitpoints in the future. Looking forward to checking it out!

What I wrote in red, is my calculations off? I presumed Fighter Alacrity / Paladin Zeal gave an additional 10% chance.

The only thing that makes me sad is what I've written in green.

[Aethene]

So basically....

Leaving epic SOS unchanged....

And reducing my dps on my kensai III khopesh twf from 110%/110% to 110%/55% or something like that?

So basically everyone will grind out epic sos?

All this for fixing shroud lag?

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS ON?!

remove the extra physics check.... sure
lower my offhand attacks in half..... no..... just no

It will be all barbarians and epic sos

[mons]

We're attacking the problem from many directions.

Since we are finally getting some communications and it is very much appreciated regardless the topic, when, Eladrin, was the last true Server upgrade?

[EyeRekon]

Thinking more about the problem at hand it seems to venture into the realm of Realtime Computing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing

For the uninitiated, don't confuse Real Time with instantaneous, it is actually "hardware and software systems that are subject to a 'real-time constraint'—i.e., operational deadlines from event to system response."

What is being faced her is a bunch of inputs/requests (combat actions) and the expectation of reasonably timely output/responses (rolls, damage, effects, messages). Without an establishment of a "reasonable" response deadline it is impossible to make any assumptions of how things are expected to perform.

Already trading platforms, exchanges, and mission-critical systems deal with this kind of problem all the time. Orders come in and must be matched within a guaranteed maximum delay. I would argue that combat is as close to a mission-critical function of the game as you could possibly get. There are products and vendors that can supply you with realtime systems that you could use to handle combat.

[Potvin]

Initial thought - significant Nerfage to TWF DPS output, but this might not be all that bad, as TWF will no longer by the only choice. S&B and THF will now be on par with TWF DPS output, making those builds more viable and respecable.
.

Umm why exactly should Sword and Board be similar in DPS to TWF? S&B has AC advantage. Saying they should be similar in DPS is foolishness.

Above and beyond the fact that some classes, like my monk, cannot use shields.

[TFPAQ]

You seem to be poking fun...

But do you think that a 50% chance of double proc and 5% chance of triple proc is the same as 100% chance of double proc?

just based on the math you did they appear to not be equal:

50% x 2 + 5% x 3 doesn't equal 100% x 2 ... silly bear ...

jk,

I'm in the camp saying one roll hit or miss either "both" hands hit or you missed the barn big boy ...

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

If only adding another server to the pile would solve all our problems! Wow, genius. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that? We'll just buy a thousand more servers and throw them on the pile. It won't cost anything to put them up, maintain them, power them, support them etc.

The things that can affect performance are: system software (unix/windows/misc), DBMS software, Game software,
hardware, network, etc.

All the servers on the world won't solve many performance issues.

Also: I'm not sure why most people assume that epic SoS will never get fixed.

Calm down a bit there...we're just offering alternatives that would be less of an impact on the community, as well as possibly being more cost-effective. (though not so much now that they've already spent man-hours developing the new combat systems)

And it doesn't necessarily mean adding servers...replacing outdated server hardware and upgrading network hardware would be just as efficient. Methinks they have thought much of this through and simply are doing this to try to kill 2 birds with one stone by nerfing TWF as well. Plus, Eladrin already pointed out that this would only help marginally, so other alternatives may be just as effective, if not moreso.

Besides, between you and me, they are most likely going this route not only to boost store revenue with the purchases of hearts of wood from respecs, but also to re-validate the jobs of many developers who may have to justify their positions after the recent WB purchase. Happens in every company when changes like that come about. Usually hardware upgrades/rollouts are projects that you might bring in additional resources to perform, while additional programming is something that they already have the personnel for.

again, just my opinion...

[Symera]

It appears to me (and to many others it seems) that there are two major components to the change. A) transaction piggy-backing and B) a major revamp to combat system mechanics.

I am completely for the reduction of dps lag. For most people, with even moderately recent computers, experience this lag in end-game raid content. Changing the melee mechanic in the proposed way will without question require a great deal of re-balancing of the classes and adventures. Reducing averaged dps makes it take longer to kill boss mobs and portals, etc. Thus requiring more spell point devoted to healing, changing the desirable makup of a party... the changes will cascade and ripple out for a very long time to bring things back into balance. I forsee this as a potential killer for the game. It has been for a number of other games in the past (i.e. SWG).

Also, I think it is important for many people to understand that the calculations in determining hits and the like are not the bottle-necking factor. Rather the number of transactions that must be handled, and more importantly their overhead is. The number of cycles spent on doing the math to dertermine if an attack hits is miniscule when compared to the handling of the packets to bring them in off the wire, move them through the hardware and memory, and then put them back out the same way.

Aditionally, one of the biggest draws to DDO is how combat feels when compared to other MMORPGs. It is quick and responsive. People really do not want to give that thrill of combat up.

There may be a way to address the above factors and not have to butcher the game.

PROPOSAL
First, leave the entire combat system alone. It works fairly well. Make the underlying transaction system changes where there exist problems. For example, when attacking special targets (portals, Harry, Sully, etc) where you set in for the duration, pack multiple attacks into a single transmission. This would retain the responsiveness of all other situations and only affect situations (boss sieges) where attacks just all run together anyway.

Another option would be to have the server self-monitor for transaction rate and have the ability to communicate to the clients to shift gears until things improved (or some time has passed). This would further insulate against balancing for specific hardware.

There are many technical things that can be done to improve dps lag.

[testing1234]

equipment nerfes is after TR system only thing i fear and this is pretty much my nightmare
dont mind doing a TR but getting a complete new set of weapon makes me close to crying.

but i do the numbers and bye bye TWF

[Seosamh]

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

Read page one and two.

Spoiler: There are still attack and confirmation rolls for your off hand, so your question is not relevant.

[zarious]

Already going into epics and trying to hit anything with any less than a fully raged barbarian THF is not very productive. This really really smacks of trying to fix dps lag by simply reducing dps. Any build that's not ranger splashed or pure fighter already has to make considerable concessions in ability points poured into dex and feats to get the full benefits of TWF. Instead of adding diversity, you're pushing more builds towards THF. I personally don't find THF fun and all of my builds would suffer from this change.

I really don't understand the mentality that I perceive the dev's to have towards fixing problems with lag. First it was DA, which is something that no one really wanted, now it's reducing dps to reduce lag. Who's asking for less dps? Just fix the lag. I don't understand all the complications involved in fixing the problem, but I am almost certain there are ways to simplify combat and reducing lag without reducing DPS.

Now back to epic. Do you intend to reduce some of the ridiculously inflated hit points that occur in epics in conjunction with this nurf, or is it the intent of the dev's that only solo arcanes or barbarians backed up by healbots be even remotely effective at epics? Most TWF builds that I've seen just starting out on epics are already reduced to dual wielding weighted 5% weapons and waiting for it to proc which will be even less likely with these changes.

In short, fix the lag and leave the dps alone. I have a really hard time believing that you have to reduce dps to reduce lag.

[Khelden]

THANKS TURBINE FOR FINALLY TRYING TO BALANCE TWF AND THF!!

Oh my god, it's so great to know they know about the issue of TWF >>>>>>>>>>> THF and are working on it. We might have the choice to go THF or TWF on fighters and paladins too instead of being a dumb if going THF.

Continue the nice work guys!

[Creeper]

So please, take your fancy new prestige lines [that your getting before classes that have been here since launch, and quite honestly need(read as: deserve) them more].

No.

We have just as much of right to give our feedback as you, thanks.

No reason to be rude.

Eladrin asked for feedback and here we are.