Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Mister_Peace]

"Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. "


Eladrin, in terms of causing DPS lag, which is most accurate?
1 Physics detection checks are the largest source.
2 Attack rolls are the largest source.
3 On-hit checks (damage rolls, lightning strike proc, etc) are the largest source.
4 Monster AI (including applying damage and status conditions to monsters) is the largest source.

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting."

Second question. Which of these statements is most accurate?
A DPS lag is a problem, and we need to solve that first.
B Combat styles are imbalanced, and we need to solve that first.
C We should solve these two problems at the same time.

[sigtrent]

Traditionally the software development mantra is "make it work, then make it fast." In this case it seems that combat is working, but just not fast enough. I think fundamentally changing how combat works may be the wrong approach. Now I certainly don't know the underlying architecture of the DDO system, but if high end Raid lag is due to heavy processing requirements then the server is simply lacking computing capacity to accommodate the load. Computing capacity is understood to be a far cheaper resource than development efforts are.

Its not really that EyeRekon, its also the com time from your client to the server across... you know... the whole internet. The process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment is the problem and while that takes cycles it also takes comm time which is far slower. Halving that time is a big gain that no amount of cloud can solve.

[Creeper]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes

Then:

(Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)

I am confused. Wind stance still grants attack speed bonus AND double hit bonus, or are you saying it only grants speed bonus on THF but not TWF?

Then, I want to comment: This really, really nerfs monks, who suffer no str or to-hit penalties to off-hand unarmed attacks, the most I think. Making off-hand attacks as valuable as main hand attacks to monks.

Will these double strikes have a "hook" with ITWF and GTWF?
The un-diminished offhand damage and the ability to do elemental ki strikes and finishers on a hook (2 in 1) is why you see monks getting kills equal to other DPS classes.

On an unrelated note: Will monks be able to hit things that are moving now?

I am suspect of this, because I do not think it will reduce lag, but think it may nerf TWF and be the biggest across-the-board nerf we have ever seen. Is this a bad thing? We'll have to wait and see!

[Mister_Peace]

I really think falchion paladins took a big step forward.

The spell Holy Sword can create many swords and non-swordlike weapons, but not Falchions.

[EazyWeazy]

So my analysis:

Rogues... yeesh. Rogues got nothing out of this other than smack downs. No double strikes, no increased off hand percentages... nothing but slaps.

Ouch.

And we all know that Rogues really needed to be slapped more.

[Steiner-Davion]

Initial thought - significant Nerfage to TWF DPS output, but this might not be all that bad, as TWF will no longer by the only choice. S&B and THF will now be on par with TWF DPS output, making those builds more viable and respecable.

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

[bobbryan2]

Dude, your ruining my fun...

Didn't you see that all TWF Pallys need to switch over to THF Pallys ... everyone in the thread said so!

-jk

You seem to be poking fun...

But do you think that a 50% chance of double proc and 5% chance of triple proc is the same as 100% chance of double proc?

[Asketes]

Whoops. see post 228


I must have pressed Submit instead of Preview

hehe

[Eladiun]

If you want to get past all the fears that most of these people have then you may have to make some sacrifices, such as;

Allow a full/free respec
Allow Greensteel items to be changed (years of farming gone/useless for some toons)
Allow DT runes for DT Armor to be returned or adjusted (years of farming)

This I agree with completely...(well maybe not the DT part so much but the first 2) Any change of this magnitude without the option to completely respec is poor judgment.

[sigtrent]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.

Its both. They could do one without the other, but its doing both.

The chaining of the off hand to main hand is the lag fix. The reduced rate of swings of off hand is the nerf.

[MrCow]

So my analysis:

Rangers seem to be getting the best of it. Doublestrikes and near the same TWF speed.

Near same speed? They lost 10% attack speed from Tempest I and that 5th off-hand attack from Tempest III (~-21% attack speed).

See above

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal no longer have attack speed bonuses. They just have double-attack +10%, which only works on the main hand weapon.

[Seosamh]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.

[slimkj]

Before I could sit in sun stance to gain ki... but now that would drop me back down to 55% proc rate on off hand. Terrible.

I hadn't even considered this. I sometimes dip into Sun to generate ki too. :/

[SquelchHU]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


Correct.

My instinctive feedback huh?

1: Fix the servers, don't nerf everyone because you can't. Plain weapons tend not to trigger DPS lag, whereas weapons with many effects do. I'd be willing to wager if you streamlined the coding for adding x good and x acid and whatever other damage types you'd do more to fix DPS lag without nerfing anyone, or making them swing slow as molasses. Now if you were keeping the off hand triggers to the same odds of an offhand attack we had before I wouldn't mind so much, but they are in fact lower. Keep in mind that this game's main edge over every other MMO is fast paced combat, therefore anything you do to diminish this directly diminishes DDO's appeal over its competitors.

2: The game is melee DPS oriented because massive boss HP totals make it that way. DPS lag only triggers with high dps being applied for an extended period. As in, raid bosses and nowhere else. Nerfing the melee is not going to help with that. After all, it's not like spell damage can pick up the slack, and 'fixing' DPS lag by making it so you can't apply enough DPS to kill the mob before it kills you...

3: If TWF is better than THF, that's a combo of itemization and most effects not scaling up when using a two handed weapon. So you get Holy once instead of twice, etc. You cite Epic SoS as an outlier, and this is indeed true. However, as Epic SoS was one of the few reasons to run Epic, and one of the few reasons to build a THF I'd say that's not a problem of TWF being too good, but a problem of THF lacking.

We'll see how it actually goes, but right now I am eyeing my sub renewal date with much trepidation. Between this and other factors I strongly believe that you and the other devs are out of touch at best. I doubt I am alone in this.

[Baahb3]

I also feel it is a bad comparison to pick the acknowledged top end overpowered eSOS as a THF comparison to TWF rather than greensteel as 1)it is not nearly as common as greensteel weapons, and 2)it can only be used at lvl 20 whereas greensteel THF is available at level 12ish(?). In addition, using frenzied berserker as a means to justify the power of THF is also somewhat flawed as it is not available to a large number of THF builds. Arguably, TWF outpaces THF from level 12 to level 19 (18 in the case of FBs) when greensteel weapons are available. So I think a little balancing can be tolerated.

Very well put.

The Tempest III Ranger 18 class is at 85% chance to land off hand attacks when not using a monk weapon, not the 25% loss of DPS that people are talking about. Add in the items that will be giving/adding to the double strike chance, their DPS will not fall all that much.

I also think the Kensei line should add to double strike chance, if they impliment this then they too will loose some but not much DPS.

The biggest hit classes right are the Monk and Rogue (more so the Rogue). I think Air stance should bring us to 80%, just under the Tempest III mark.

I really don't know what to do for the TWFing rogues out there. They loose out on 45% of their off hand attacks with no current way to boost that number. This is something that will need to be addressed before fully implimenting this proposal.

[Hendrik]

Thank you E for the heads up and wanting to get our feedback early.

On the fence about this just by reading what you have in mind. Some actual playtesting on Llama will sway my vote.

[Irinis]

I like unconventional builds, a lot. You are not making it fun for me.

Fixed it for ya. NEVER use the "e" word here...

[tihocan]

Barbarians already got that memo.

Some of us ignored the first memo, here's what we get for not following the trend

[joker922]

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

[kaelis]

Dear E,

I gotta tell you, at first glance it seemed, okay, then i finished reading went away ate some lunch and checked back. Now I'm not so sure, but regardless I won't join the band wagon again and cry d00m til I see them in action. Especially since you have admitted multiple times to be willing to tweak the system to what seems to balance out pre/post patch dps the best while maintaining an acceptable amount of reduction to dps lag.
Cool beans, /Wait.

To all the monks, all I have to say is please kindly stop. Your coming out better then most other TWF classes. Better of then fighters and paladins from first glance, let alone TWF Bards and Rogues who just fell from the bottom of the dps charts to not even ON the chart - compared to even monks. I shudder to think of one attempting to compete with an eSoS build now. So please, take your fancy new prestige lines [that your getting before classes that have been here since launch, and quite honestly need(read as: deserve) them more].