Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

The implication being that an AC of 45-55 would be at all useful in epic, whereas nearly every report I've seen has indicated that the AC required to be show any misses is in the 80-100 range. Maybe these people were inflating their values, or ignoring the weakest of the epic monsters, or maybe you're including debuffs to attack bonus in your data.

Ultimately, I fail to see how everyone else who has discussed AC in epics has managed to not see an AC of 55 being somewhat worthwhile, as I'm sure there are plenty of rangers, monks and tank-types running around in DPS mode while maintaining an incidental AC in the 50-65 range.

The 45/50 number includes the proposed changes, where the trash mobs will get -1d20 to hit. As things stand now, 45/50 is of no use whatsoever.

Currently, at 55+ you start to lose HP fractionally slower than other people, probably due to the occasional glancing blows being made on you rather than full attacks. That is the only thing that I mean when I suggest 55+ currently making a slight difference, and nothing more.

I repeat, I have never stated that AC 55+ can be any sort of decent AC in Epic, just that that's where AC, in some Epic quests and against some Epic trash (but not all) starts to slow HP loss for you. How many times do I have to repeat this, before you get the point that I'm not suggesting that AC 55 is a meaningful level of AC in Epic ? Because it isn't ?

In cases where I've been up to about AC 75 I have seen mobs actually miss me completely with greater frequency, and yes, you are absolutely right, I'm talking about the weaker mobs (although AC 75 is actually somewhat useful against the extremely weak ones, like the pet hyenas in WK). That is why I am talking about AC 75+ (currently) being needed for any sort of significant level of it. I cannot predict how much this will be affected, where the ordinary epic trash is concerned, by the new -1d20 penalties for the Epic trash ; though logic suggests that you will start to see misses at about 55+ in the new system, even though they will still be few and far between. Significant AC is also likely to be starting at 65+ instead of 75+ -- Note please, *starting* -- this does not mean that AC 75 is high enough to constitute *good* AC in Epic, because it isn't ; nor will AC 65 be in the new system.

And FWIW, yes there are many people who consider that AC which is about 10 points below minimum overall tank level AC for a quest is worthless, and they report it as such ; even where in actual fact, the lower AC may be of some benefit against some of the weaker mobs.

[Natashaelle]

Can we form a consensus that STWF should not be added to the game, irrespective of whatever other changes transpire regarding TWF and attack speeds?

No.

[Natashaelle]

It bears on your credibility...which is none

Cripes, can you please STOP asking Calebro to show you his toons ?

It is becoming very tedious, and is undermining your own credibility rather than anyone else's that you expect someone's MyDDO page to be of any relevance at all to this ongoing discussion.

[ahpook]

I officially give up trying to get through this whole thread. So at the risk of repeating what others have said:

My biggest concern is for assassins. With the offhand being at 80% and piggybacking on the collision detection of the main hand, it would seem that the double assassinate will be a thing of the past. If the double assassinate was WAI then this will be hard to swallow. Since the assassinate ability is already a special attack (doesn't break stealth), hopefully they can code it as 2 independent attacks.

I do think the new numbers are not so bad and much better than the 55% for GTWF that was initially proposed. I don't mind the "nerf" and don't think it is that big of deal. I am disappointed that so many so-called gamers out there find that this minor set back is too much of a challenge for them.

[Torvic]

I still fail to understand why it matters if one fighting style is better for "standard" melee builds. THF is optimal for some viable builds, there is also the epic SoS. Why does it matter that TWF is right for 80% of builds or whatever? There is always going to be one fighting style that's best for a certain build, so you're not really introducing more choice here, nor are you introducing more variety (that would be adding a third fighting style). Even if it did, it's not worth nerfing several toons that people have put a lot of work into just to give more "options" for builds, there are already many many viable options for toons to build, this is not DDO's problem.

[Druxan]

basically right now a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks (assuming GTWF) and +35% attack speed increase (10% stacks with haste.) so that means now we're doing about 27 (including 35% attack speed increase, no haste) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

the proposed changes are a monk would get 19 hits in 10 clicks (on average and assuming GTWF) with a 15% attack speed increase (does not stack with haste.) changes are going to work out to 21.85 (including 15% attack speed increase, no haste, on average) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

over 100 clicks that's a loss of 51.5 swings or on my dex monk (using no wraps/ToD rings while power attack is on at 22 strength and no misses) a loss of 669.5 - 1596.5 damage

that's a lot if my calculations are correct

Edit: just tried to gauge the speed of 10 clicks, it's around 5.3 seconds for the game to actually register (no stance or attack speed increases) so that's every 53 seconds you can lose 669.5 - 1596.5 damage if you're just using your fists. With +5 Holy wraps of PG (while power attack is on, no misses) you're loosing 1081.5 - 2781 damage

[Swedishchef]

Cripes, can you please STOP asking Calebro to show you his toons ?

It is becoming very tedious, and is undermining your own credibility rather than anyone else's that you expect someone's MyDDO page to be of any relevance at all to this ongoing discussion.

Post your toons please, aaahh yes your not even playing ere, as u said on the EU forums: can all the ones playing on the US go post on the US forum, so can you please go post on the EU forum.

Bad troll go home.

[Bloodhaven]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

It might be a good idea to add alters for De constructing and tier 1 and 3 shroud crafting to Amerath outdoor area.


I have over 17 toons and ALL of them use 2 weapons to do damage. Thats allot of time wasted on GS items and allot of feets wasted aswell.

Out of 17+ toons I play <17 on main account and 4 on 2nd account> I use 2 weapons to deal damage to portals, pillars, and other imoble objects on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons to deal damage in epic on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons on stunned, held, stoned or autocrit mobs with all my toons.

I have a large investment in GS and other looted weapons. Just look at my join date and you can see that i'v spent allot of time gearing out my toons.

^^

Out of 17 geared out toons only 1 has all available TWF feets.

[deathtouch]

All I know is that I would expect one +3 Heart of Wood in each of my char inventory if this goes live. Just in case you nerf my toons again.

your toons are all gimp oldman you might need 5 +3 hearts each toon

[Bloodhaven]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

If this is dun and posted by a dev that it will be dun there will be a less biased discussion about how this change will effect the good of the game.

[Bloodhaven]

your toons are all gimp oldman you might need 5 +3 hearts each toon

Already edited to make them +20 hearts.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

basically right now a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks (assuming GTWF) and +35% attack speed increase (10% stacks with haste.) so that means now we're doing about 27 (including 35% attack speed increase, no haste) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

the proposed changes are a monk would get 19 hits in 10 clicks (on average and assuming GTWF) with a 15% attack speed increase (does not stack with haste.) changes are going to work out to 21.85 (including 15% attack speed increase, no haste, on average) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

over 100 clicks that's a loss of 51.5 swings or on my dex monk (using no wraps/ToD rings while power attack is on at 22 strength) a loss of 669.5 - 1596.5 damage

that's a lot if my calculations are correct

Currently a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks and a +12% (flurry) +15% (haste) + 10% (insight) = 41% boost

the proposed changes monk gets 19 hits in 10 clicks and a 15% (haste) + 12% (flurry) = 29% boost.

so 20*1.41 vs 19*1.288 = 28.336 vs 24.472 which is an approx 14% nerf.

This is actually towards the light end of the nerf bat range, unless the devs decide to add stwf, a feat which monks will be unable to take due to lack of BAB, and that puts a fly in the ointment for rogues and monks.

Garth

[NuclearCoffee]

This could be the beginning of the end for this MMOG.
Historicly any time the Devs of a game, start radicaly messing with game mechanics of that game, it leaves patrons angry and frustrated.
I have played The Shroud before and after the data move, it was not half as bad before the move!
Why has no one else though maybe something went wrong there???
The problem is bandwidth, and your even telling me the problem is bandwidth. That why the need to reduce the size of the code. How about throwing some hardware @ the problem first?

[FluffyCalico]

So if I understand correctly now when you are holding 2 weapons both swings must go to the same target even if you don't have anything targeted? So TWF also gets a reduction in vorpals smites banishes etc as now you can no longer hit one with your main hand and 1 with your off hand as both would have to go the the same mob.

[Druxan]

This could be the beginning of the end for this MMOG.
Historicly any time the Devs of a game, start radicaly messing with game mechanics of that game, it leaves patrons angry and frustrated.
The problem is bandwidth, and your even telling me the problem is bandwidth. That why the need to reduce the size of the code. How about throwing some hardware @ the problem first?

mmm hardware, agreed with this idea.

[Yaga_Nub]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

It might be a good idea to add alters for De constructing and tier 1 and 3 shroud crafting to Amerath outdoor area.


I have over 17 toons and ALL of them use 2 weapons to do damage. Thats allot of time wasted on GS items and allot of feets wasted aswell.

Out of 17+ toons I play <17 on main account and 4 on 2nd account> I use 2 weapons to deal damage to portals, pillars, and other imoble objects on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons to deal damage in epic on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons on stunned, held, stoned or autocrit mobs with all my toons.

I have a large investment in GS and other looted weapons. Just look at my join date and you can see that i'v spent allot of time gearing out my toons.

^^

Out of 17 geared out toons only 1 has all available TWF feets.

Yeah good luck with that.

[Natashaelle]

Post your toons please, aaahh yes your not even playing ere, as u said on the EU forums: can all the ones playing on the US go post on the US forum, so can you please go post on the EU forum.

Bad troll go home.

<pokes tongue out> nyaah nyaah nyaaaah !!!

[Coldin]

mmm hardware, agreed with this idea.

As anyone that really knows programming will tell you, efficient code makes a huge difference. Much more than any increase in hardware will do.

[Tamerlane]

So if I understand correctly now when you are holding 2 weapons both swings must go to the same target even if you don't have anything targeted? So TWF also gets a reduction in vorpals smites banishes etc as now you can no longer hit one with your main hand and 1 with your off hand as both would have to go the the same mob.

we dont know that for sure, we are assuming that.

what we do know is that now, each hand calculates collision, and in the proposed fix, only the main hand calculates collision and the off hand weapons assumes the same collision condition.

I know that if i target one mob that is farther away and take a swing i can "accidentally" hit a mob that is still close. we do not completely know what is involved in a "collision calculation" it might actually track where more then just our targeted mob is. it may track all mobs that are close by. some people do attack without targets at all and the game still manages to figure out if they can hit stuff....

[Isolani]

Ehh, can I get a refund on the +2 tomes I've bought at the DDO store so a lot of my builds could get GTWF? Thanks.