Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Calebro]

The problem I see with this nerf, especially if you wish it to have an impact enough to allow S&B to start to catch up, is that there is no mention of a corresponding nerf to MOB hit points.

Calebro, do you play Endgame?
Do you run Elite or Epic?
Have you seen how long and boring some of the fights can be?

Endgame and Elite, yes. Epic, no. I find epic boring, for the exact reason you described coupled with the fact that I've already completed those quests countless times before.
And I agree that mobs' HP are too high for S&B to become a viable option. Which is exactly why DPS needs to be nerfed, because until DPS is nerfed, mobs' HP aren't going to change.

[eonfreon]

Endgame and Elite, yes. Epic, no. I find epic boring, for the exact reason you described coupled with the fact that I've already completed those quests countless times before.
And I agree that mobs' HP are too high for S&B to become a viable option. Which is exactly why DPS needs to be nerfed, because until DPS is nerfed, mobs' HP aren't going to change.

If I could see any mention of Devs saying that this will allow them to lower MOB hit points and that they ever actually will, I would be happy to just sit back and let it be for now.

But this starts to smell like when the introduction of Grazing Hits would lead to the possibility that the Devs would lower MOB to-hits.
It certainly never did.

As I've said before; could be and will be are two different beasts.

[Rumbaar]

Too many pages to read, but have they addressed the 'PROC' rate and Ki stikes? Their failure depending on the PROC of the offhand/feet? Low level Monks are starved for Ki as it is, and if they'll loose so much Ki on non PROC offhand strikes it will be a series nerf for them/us.

[smatt]

All smart assed remarks aside, all I can say is that I could really careless what they nerf or don't nerf at this point. Myself as well as a good number of the major contributers to this thread have been aroudn long enough to know that nerfs happen. They always have and always will.... Get over it...

The most important thing in my eyes is that the game function better as a whole. Less lag especially in raids at this point would achieve that. Far less bugged items/feats/enhancements/UI would also help achieve such a thing. That's far more important than any minimal nerf to any one class race or playstyle. The fun of the many outweighs the crying by the few

It is sad that there are people that will likely take a hit no matter how the numbers work out in such a change. But when you pigeon hole yourself into the DPS is the only measure,and the more twists and turns you use, the more complicated your build becomes the more likely you will take a hit by the nerf bat at soem point, whether it's this mod or the or the next......

The sooner the very same people that have fits everytime there's a nerf figure out that nerfs have always happened, and will continue.. The sooner they might get it into their thick skulls that **** happens... Play on or don't offer constructive opinions or don't..... But really who cares anymore than that

[sephiroth1084]

No

Why?

Well, I certainly hope that STWF isn't added to the current game. There is just no way I'll be able to fit it into my current characters, not without a respec and deleting a Feat that has been basically part of my characters' overall "flavor".
There is little enough wiggle room in Feat selection for anyone besides Fighters. This will just insure that every TWF character will have to be built identical. As is TWF characters have to be built nearly identical, but at least there is generally 1 Feat of wiggle room.

And that's the crux of the issue: essentially forcing everyone to spend 4 feats on one thing is just too difficult for most characters, as they typically have only 7 feats to play around with in the first place. Aside from the fact that it is difficult to fit in, in general, it is a fairly boring way of spending your feats (as A_D said a few pages back), results in fewer options realistically (and less variation from one character to the next), and will likely be impossible for many characters to pick up if the requirements are at all more difficult to meet than those of GTWF, as many builds began with a 15 Dex (+2 tome), 14 Dex (+3 tome), or relied on ranger providing the feat chain for free and chose to begin with even less Dex. Plus, if the feat has a BAB requirement, rogues, monks, bards, clerics and favored souls will likely be unable to pick up the feat since they don't hit BAB 15 until after their final feat at lvl 18, and never get more.

[eonfreon]

Well, I have to go.
But I just want to make one point.

If the lowering of dps will allow the Devs to lower hit points, then I would say that it would behoove them to do so on the test/preview server before going live.

Do not make Epic even more boring. With the nerf to THF and TWF and no corresponding nerf to MOB hit points, why would anyone without a ESoS ever want to step into Epic?
And Epic is the only content released currently for Endgame characters.

Update 5 seems to be a possible double kick to Endgame players.

[Angelus_dead]

This is not true. Your DPS will not be the same against single enemies with all three THF feats as it would be without...

Exactly incorrect. You seem to have the impression that glancing blows do not hit your primary target, which certainly isn't the case.

[sephiroth1084]

As another issue, which I haven't seen mentioned: if rangers are going to be able to get back up to 100% on their off-hand attacks, and other characters may be able to do the same via feats and other abilities, what is the point of the nerf in the first place? At least in this fashion?

If they felt that TWF's attack speed was too fast, why not lower the base speed a little bit, the way they lowered attack speeds when DD:EU first hit? Drop the swing speed itself by a few percent, and leave everything else alone. That can't possibly be too difficult, since they played around with that sort of thing quite a bit about a year ago, doesn't require any new programming, accomplishes the goal of reducing TWF DPS ever so slightly, and keeps everything else intact.

Then we wouldn't need to worry about STWF, how off-hand animations would being affected, unreliable off-hand attacks, how the change applies to different classes differently (excluding monks somewhat), redefining how alacrity effects function, and can do away with this Double-strike stuff.

[sephiroth1084]

Exactly incorrect. You seem to have the impression that glancing blows do not hit your primary target, which certainly isn't the case.

Wasn't that Creeper's point?

[testing1234]

this might be beating on a dead and buried horse corpse several years dead but im gona give it a go just in case a miracle happens and it resurrects from my -32 masterwork bastardsword.

could a developer please give us players some numbers on what the actual speed is on THF and TWF so i know that the players that measured these did not make a mistake.
how can i talk about theoretically changes when im not 100% sure i have the original speed values to compare them?
while its slightly tin foil hat i trust very little i read on the forum (including what developers write)

[Oran_Lathor]

80% classes have inherited affinity for twf. Sneak attack, smite, inspire courage all favor twf. And I have not even mentioned monks and (melee)rangers who are forced into being twf. Which leaves Fighters who can go either way, Barbarians and WF-based arcane/divines who usually goo THF.

Now tell me, are barbarians (almost exclusive THF users) underpowered? Do they need to take 5-15% dps of the rogue to make poor barbarians viable?

QFT.

Does no one remember back when rangers couldn't get into groups at all because their dps 'sucked' ? That was before tempest. With the proposed change, tempests are losing virtually all the dps they gained, and other rangers are worse off still.

I really hope this doesn't leave us with entire servers of THF Frenzied Berserkers and Kensai.

[sephiroth1084]

this might be beating on a dead and buried horse corpse several years dead but im gona give it a go just in case a miracle happens and it resurrects from my -32 masterwork bastardsword.

could a developer please give us players some numbers on what the actual speed is on THF and TWF so i know that the players that measured these did not make a mistake.
how can i talk about theoretically changes when im not 100% sure i have the original speed values to compare them?
while its slightly tin foil hat i trust very little i read on the forum (including what developers write)

Honestly, the numbers that Monkey Archer (and others) have put forth for attack speeds are probably as, or more, accurate than whatever values the devs have.

[uhgungawa]

Endgame and Elite, yes. Epic, no. I find epic boring, for the exact reason you described coupled with the fact that I've already completed those quests countless times before.
And I agree that mobs' HP are too high for S&B to become a viable option. Which is exactly why DPS needs to be nerfed, because until DPS is nerfed, mobs' HP aren't going to change.

This just shows how little you know. S/B DPS should be WAY less than TWF and THF. That's not the problem with S/B, the problem is S/B should be defensive but with an AC spread of 40 or more from high to low on a d20 system it's completely broke. This is what needs fixing. DPS doen't.

Turbine made their bed, now they need to lay in it. Going "Here you go, this is how the game is" then going"Hell with that. we're going to take it away" is BS. They need to test their product, and invest into it. If the servers suck, change them. If their decanter people suck, make it in house. They keep saying how well they're doing now, prove it.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Is this because of the Offer Wall debacle, Turbine?

Y'all getting us back for that?

Tell ya what, scrap the nerf and I'll click on yer Offer Wall.

Deal?

[Angelus_dead]

Aside from the fact that it is difficult to fit in, in general, it is a fairly boring way of spending your feats (as A_D said a few pages back), results in fewer options realistically

Elaborating on that with appeal to an expert...
Why would an STWF feat be less fun than things like Cleave and Slicing Blow (if they had been fixed to be worthwhile)? All three feats have the end result of causing additional melee damage, so what's the difference?

As a major game designer recently explained, a character option probably isn't much fun if acquiring the option doesn't change what the player does. That fits STWF, because a player who has STWF does exactly the same things as when he only had GTWF (even if the results are a little more successful, he doesn't behave differently). But a player who gets Cleave or Slicing Blow will start doing new behaviors, as he begins watching for situations where those active feats work best and clicking the icon at the right times.

A game where active feats like Cleave and Slicing Blow have a useful place in combat is more fun than if they didn't.

[Rumbaar]

Is this because of the Offer Wall debacle, Turbine?
Y'all getting us back for that?
Tell ya what, scrap the nerf and I'll click on yer Offer Wall.
Deal?

Ha! I thought they just punished all those that have use PayPal and reduced them to FREE status in the latest routine maintenance.

[Angelus_dead]

This just shows how little you know. S/B DPS should be WAY less than TWF and THF. That's not the problem with S/B, the problem is S/B should be defensive but with an AC spread of 40 or more from high to low on a d20 system it's completely broke. This is what needs fixing.

Not really. Fixing that would leave behind the fundamental initiative inequality between offense and defense, but that's a complex subject to explain (especially without a whiteboard)

[Razcar]

Can we form a consensus that STWF should not be added to the game, irrespective of whatever other changes transpire regarding TWF and attack speeds?

I agree on that. It will royally screw over 3/4 BAB classes.

And a note for people that say the TWF should be nerfed because there are more TWF:ers than other styles - THF has been boosted significantly, especially the last year, with bonuses to glancing blows and support baked in to several PrEs.

But the Shroud has been around for two years, and people already have their Mineral II kopeshes made. They crafted them when THF was much weaker than it is now. They won't dump them just because THF has gotten boosted the last year. But for new characters, THF is looking good. If we would keep the system as it is now, and wait a year, I think that the difference in how many users there are of each style would be much more equal.

If Eladrin's plans are realised we might instead see mostly THF users in one year, since TWF will become an expensive, pointless and silly curiosity.

[Angelus_dead]

Wasn't that Creeper's point?

I guess so. It's harder to accurately read these things when unhelpful moderators are squishing dozens of separate topics into a single thread for "ease of reading".

[Merlocke]

The more I read this thread and these proposed bs changes the less I want to log in as a melee.